Fisheries Committee on Nov. 25th, 2020

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

Mr. Berry, what are your thoughts on the managing aspect of the resource in terms of maybe having a bit of control over the resource? You know, with lobster dockside monitoring, maybe we'd get a better price for it. Maybe we'd get a better demand for lobster if we controlled the amount of lobster in the market. As we all know, lobster is flooding the market right now.

[Bernie Berry]

I think that, at this point, we do not need dockside monitoring. We have enough things in place, like logbooks and checks and balances. Even from a provincial standpoint, there are some checks and balances there with buyers and how much product they're buying.

We have a good idea of how many lobsters are coming ashore. Yes, there are a lot of lobsters, but we have facilities now that can hold hundreds of thousands of pounds of lobsters and basically play to the market as the market needs them. It's not like we're landing all our lobsters today and have to get rid of them today. These facilities allow us to hold lobsters for four, five, six months. That also helps us get a better price because we're not flooding the market at any one point.

I think, at least at this point, a dockside monitoring program is simply not needed in the lobster fishery.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Madam Gill for two and a half minutes, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Williams, Mr. Berry or Mr. Clarke.

I will continue in the same vein. I know that where I come from, on the North Shore, the indigenous communities would like to have indigenous fishery officers.

Do you believe that could also be part of the solution, even if many factors are involved?

[Bernie Berry]

Madam Gill, having aboriginal fisheries officers is a good idea. The key is that they're enforcing the same, one regulatory regime. Again, I know it sounds redundant, but you can only have one regulatory regime.

Thank you.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I have asked my question to several individuals and the others are not answering, and because I need the interpretation, it takes me longer. I apologize.

I have one more question to ask. That being said, no, I don't feel that Mr. Berry was repeating himself.

With respect to decentralization, Mr. Clarke was just saying that he wanted to see people on the ground.

Do you feel that Fisheries and Oceans Canada and Canadian Coast Guard operations are too centralized and that the communities would benefit from decentralization?

[Alan Clarke]

I think it's long overdue that the Department of Fisheries has direct-line reporting similar to the RCMP. I don't believe that you should be hiring directors general—supervising conservation, protection and enforcement in Ottawa—or regional directors in Halifax who have never been trained as fisheries officers, who have never done fisheries officer duties, who are bureaucrats who don't know the people they're directing and how they're trained, or how they should function in potentially very dangerous situations.

I think there should be direct-line reporting from the area, perhaps to the regional director, but direct-line reporting similar to what the commissioner is in the RCMP. I've made this argument many times. How would we react as citizens if the commissioner of the RCMP had never been trained as a recruit at RCMP depot, had never progressed up the chain of command, and all of a sudden was put in charge of the whole organization? Would we expect any police force in any major city to have a police chief who was a bureaucrat and who was never trained as a police officer supervising a city police department?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I want to thank the witnesses again for their important testimony today.

Several non-indigenous fishers' associations have appeared at this committee and talked about tensions, the lack of communication, and the desire for everyone to be on the same page when it comes to operations.

Mr. Berry, maybe you can speak about the outreach effort work that your association has done in order to bridge that communications gap between your fishers and indigenous fishers, and also maybe about education, about the understanding of the treaty and the constitutionally protected rights of those communities.

[Bernie Berry]

I may have the time frame a little bit wrong, but we were engaged in dialogue with first nations from the local area of southwest Nova about two years ago for about a year trying to talk this through. It was very slow going. We didn't come out of it with any agreements or anything like this, but we were talking.

That table kind of elevated to other first nations in Nova Scotia. For example, Chief Terry Paul was there, and we were having conversations with them and KMKNO for maybe six to eight months. Again, it was very slow moving. Then we're not sure what happened. It just seemed to fall off the rails, and we haven't gotten back together.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you feel it's the role of the federal government to shape and foster that community building that's required to build the trust between the indigenous and non-indigenous fishers?

[Bernie Berry]

I think it could help. At some point, indigenous and non-indigenous people have to reach out to one another also. Certainly, DFO has a part to play.

At some point, we have to get to a point where we can all talk about how we move forward with this and be at the same table. I'm not talking about a rights table, but when it comes to things about the fishery—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The communication.

[Bernie Berry]

Yes, the communication. We simply have to be there to put our views forward and have them fully vetted. Will there be disagreement? Absolutely. You can't ignore the fishing industry or any other industry when it comes to these kinds of talks when you're changing the landscape on what...or how a fishery or an industry is looked upon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

Two and a half minutes passes by quickly when you're having fun.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Clarke, how does the enforcement branch determine what level of enforcement to apply to a situation over the years? Was the direction ever received from higher-ups or from the minister's office?

[Alan Clarke]

I can only speak to my own situation prior to my retirement.

At the time we completed something that was called the integrated fisheries management plan that included conservation, protection and enforcement as part of the model. It was run primarily by the areas.

Just to give you some of my own experience, I had disagreements in the past from some of my masters at regional headquarters who had a different idea of how enforcement should have been conducted. At one time I said to them, “If you don't agree with what we're doing, please put it in writing. I want your direction in writing. Unless I get it in writing, I'm going to continue to do what I'm doing", but I never received it in writing.

If I had received something that I disagreed with or thought was illegal or immoral, I would have resigned, and I would have made it widely known why I was resigning.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You referred to a recent resignation. I believe it was a Mr. Hutchins, because they were basically told to stand down on the enforcement after the minister made her announcement.

Can you elaborate further on that?

[Alan Clarke]

That's my understanding.

I wouldn't call it a resignation. I would call it an opting for early retirement, because he was frustrated with the decisions that were being made for him to stand down his unit in St. Marys Bay.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Pardon me. I didn't mean to use the term resign; I meant to use the term retired. Thank you for clarifying that.

Mr. Berry, we repeatedly asked the minister if she was open to the idea of having two separate fisheries, and yet she seems to deny that this is a possibility. She also says that she can't speak about what is being negotiated. It leads us to wonder if that is what's being negotiated.

Can you outline to the committee whether this is something commercial fishers have asked for or if they think it would be helpful?

[Bernie Berry]

Mr. Arnold, you're talking about having the one regulatory regime. I know we've had numerous talks with the minister even over the last three months. We've had maybe five or six calls, and at every call that is one of the linchpins that is always talked about, one regulatory system. There only can be one regulator, meaning DFO, and the minister has certainly the power and the wherewithal to issue licences and do whatever else. Two regulatory regimes or three is simply a non-starter for the industry. It has to be one regulator, period.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You indicated earlier that you didn't feel that dockside monitoring was necessary. Can you elaborate on how the catch is accounted for, basically, at either the vessel level or the purchasing or selling level within both the indigenous and non-indigenous fisheries?

[Bernie Berry]

Well, at least in the commercial season it's the same. Every commercial fisherman, whether it's a communal commercial licence or a commercial licence, has to fill out a daily logbook. Logbooks have to be turned in once a month and the data is entered and so on and so forth. As I pointed out, on the provincial side, it also requires a certain percentage of lobster buyers to give them...how much product they have bought, where, when and stuff like that. It's not 100% coverage, but they do have to enter some stuff.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do both indigenous and non-indigenous report the same way?