Fisheries Committee on Feb. 1st, 2021

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

Ms. Lem, all of you have talked about this commitment and it's good we're seeing some promises and we're seeing some mandate letters. There was something you said about the integration across departments. For this two-year plan that you're starting to embark upon, have you seen those departments? Have you seen any specific changes that this government has done so this plan can all of a sudden become a reality that you're starting to develop, or is Mr. Brown going to be sitting here in two years' time saying, look, here we go again, now we have 42 years?

What changes have you seen to have that plan be enacted?

[Tawney Lem]

Certainly, locally at the salmon round tables what we're seeing from DFO, as an example, is that they're bringing resource management, they're bringing the salmon enhancement program, they're bringing science—restoration biologists, stock assessment—they're bring all of those branches to the table where they're needed, and bringing in aquaculture as well. There is a recognized conversation about the need to also be calling in the province and making sure that those relationships are there. They're bringing all of those groups to the table.

You asked Frank about what's being witnessed with the government, and I really wanted to emphasize that government isn't one entity or one unit. We are seeing evidence of that cultural shift more and more, of government not coming to a group and saying, “Here's our decision. What do you think?” but instead saying, “Here's the problem. How do we figure this out together?” There's more initiation and support for collaborative tables to form. I want to acknowledge where those shifts and improvements are happening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Mazier.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a question for Chief Brown.

In your opinion, Chief, is a managed harvest of seals on the west coast essential to the rebuilding of salmon stocks?

[Frank Brown]

I believe that things are out of balance and there are too many seals. You can see it when they go to feed on the herring and the salmon in the river systems. There's a massive amount of seals and sea lions, and I believe there does need to be a culling program, but it has to be managed properly to maintain the balance.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chief.

We seem to be able to quantify what is happening in the rivers and the systems that is leading to the loss of habitat or deterioration of habitat for salmon.

Chief, collectively, do DFO and the indigenous knowledge keepers have a good understanding of what is happening at sea?

[Frank Brown]

I don't believe we do. I believe it's getting better. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Dick Beamish, who used to be the head of the Pacific Biological Station in Nanaimo. He's an Order of Canada recipient scientist and it was his passion to go out. He raised money to go out, and I think they're now going into their second or third year of research in the north Pacific, where the salmon are going. I don't believe we do know exactly where they go. That's the challenge.

Of course, the two big blobs that we had in the north Pacific, El Niño and La Niña, and the ocean acidification are obviously going to make things more challenging for the salmon to survive.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chief.

I have a question for Ms. Lem.

This is an issue that has been ongoing for some time. In fact, the reduction in salmon stocks on the east coast has been an issue various governments have been attempting to deal with. I genuinely believe that ministers, regardless of political stripe, attempt to make the right decision on issues. I genuinely do believe that.

In that view, could you sum up what DFO has gotten consistently wrong over the last period of time and what they have to get right to change this?

[Tawney Lem]

Thank you for the question.

Again, this requires that integration. What we do see from time to time are those increased efforts and then some waning. Recently, the provincial government had a B.C. salmon strategy and a group that they were putting together. In taking a look at that, we took a look at some historical documents that showed agreements and protocols, for example, between the federal government and the provincial government in order for them to connect and work together on salmon. Some of those groups started, and then, for whatever reasons, became stalled or stopped.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

The lack of continuity on planning between both levels of government is a [Technical difficulty—Editor] got it wrong. Could you then identify the one thing that is essential to getting it right and keeping this iconic fishery from being lost?

[Tawney Lem]

I think it's just the commitment that we're in this together. No one party has the knowledge or the resources to do this on their own. We need to commit in the long term to develop the plan, implement it, monitor its effectiveness and iterate as we need to.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

With that, you made a comment that—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Morrissey. I believe Mr. Brown had his hand up to give a response to that question.

[Frank Brown]

One of the issues is the fettering of the minister's authority. Every time we develop a plan and move forward, we always get pushed back in that regard. You don't have any decision-making authority. There needs to be power-sharing with the local communities living in those regions, because it's all centralized power out of Ottawa. If there was a way to share decision-making power through this mechanism you've talked about, by creating a collaborative governance process, I think that would be a solution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, honoured guests and panellists. We appreciate hearing from you, your invaluable insights and perspectives and the passion you bring to this very important challenge that we're all facing together.

Obviously, we've been hearing from each of you this evening—and hearing throughout this study—about the challenges we're facing with the lack of coordination. It seems that everyone has the same objective. We want to see the salmon restored to healthy stock levels and to be there for future generations.

I want to ask you what you think should be done that isn't being done by the current government to help with the Pacific salmon in particular. I know that we've heard several thoughts about that tonight in certain veins and on certain aspects. I'm trying to break it down into what are the actionable steps that you would recommend need to be taken right away to get to a solution as quickly as possible.

I will start with you, Chief Brown, and then go to the other guests.

[Frank Brown]

I think we need to come up with a plan, as your colleague said. Honourable Mr. Hardie spoke about a “master plan”. I think that's the idea. That needs to be put together, and then there need to be adequate resources to do the work, simply at a high level.

I also think—not to be critical—that DFO is conflicted. They're supposed to be managing by the precautionary principle, especially during these critical times of the biomass decline of wild salmon, yet they're investing in finfish aquaculture. When I was on that fisheries conservation council, $75 million annually was being invested into finfish aquaculture while they were supposed to be protecting and managing wild salmon.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Do you have anything to add to that, Bev?

[Bev Sellars]

Yes. I think the environmental assessment process that happens needs to recognize the jurisdictional authority of first nations, and we also need to get the information that they get. It has to be a neutral, independent body, not one that seems to focus on business development goals more than the environment.

There should be no go zones, absolute no go zones. Also, it has to deal more effectively with cumulative effects, not just one project here and another there. It has to be looking at the whole process, and until we get there, you know.... It absolutely has to happen. Of course, it all needs to be consistent with UNDRIP, because if indigenous people are making decisions, it's good for all of Canada. If we're on a equal basis, it's good for all of Canada. Some people may not like it, but the decisions will be better.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Lem, quickly, do you have anything to add on that one?

[Tawney Lem]

Thank you.

Just in summary, we need integration within the federal government, a really close connection with the provincial government, particularly forestry, the meaningful involvement of communities and that commitment, as Frank has said, to resource the plan beyond just this budget year or beyond this government.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

This is one of the things. Whether it's on the east coast fishing crisis that we've been through recently, and now with the west coast Pacific salmon crisis that we're in, it seems that from coast to coast there is a recognition and a growing desire to see a collaborative, comprehensive approach that engages all pertinent stakeholders. Obviously, our indigenous peoples would be very much a big part of this, as well as folks from the local communities, the communities that are going to be affected by this, including the fish harvesters who have been doing this for many years—all stakeholders.

In order to get to a comprehensive solution, it's going to take everyone being at the table in a transparent way. It seems that the challenge—I believe Mr. Hardie alluded to this, and Mr. Arnold as well—is that everyone seems to be operating in silos. We have a kind of disjointed approach. We're not getting that singular focus, with all key stakeholders having buy-in and feeling that they are part of the solution. Oftentimes, we're seeing one pitting blame against the other, and that's never productive. If we can get to something where we have a shared value—that we all want to preserve the salmon species—and we're working together in collaboration, I think we'll get there.

Are there any final thoughts you would like to offer on this?

My time is probably just about up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, you're over your time.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I apologize.

Thank you, folks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You don't realize how much time a little speech will chew up before you get to any answers.

We have about three minutes left.

Mr. McKinnon, could you close this out, please?