Evidence of meeting #16 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was knowledge.
A video is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
I'm sorry but I'm going to have to cut this fairly short, because I don't have a lot of time.
Let me go to Ms. Lem and ask that same question.
Who owns the plan? Who has the master plan that says, “Look, these are the things we have to do, so now let's get together and figure out who's going to do what”?
5 p.m.
Executive Director, West Coast Aquatic Managment Association
Some of those plans are in development. I think what we need to remember is that it really is a question of scale. You asked whether it is river by river, province-wide or coast-wide. It's all of those things. There is work that has to happen at a watershed level. There's work that has to be done at a subregional or sound level. There's work that needs to be done on a south coast basis and then a coast-wide or province-wide basis. All of those also have to come together in an integrated way.
We're looking at the west coast of Vancouver Island chinook recovery plan that is under development right now—as a result of COSEWIC listing west coast chinook as threatened as well as the Bill C-68 requirements. The plan that's being worked on there is for the integration of hatchery, habitat and harvest: what fish in what amount in what systems for what purpose, and how do we get there? Enhancement is a tool. Habitat is a tool. All of those things have to come together. We need to be talking among those different scales to make sure that what's happening in one area is complementary and assisting the work that's happening in another area.
5 p.m.
Executive Director, West Coast Aquatic Managment Association
We have terms of reference, if you will, and the table of contents is being developed.
The COSEWIC listing came out just in November, so that starts a two-year clock ticking. That group is working on that integrated plan for the west coast of Vancouver Island.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
This is a problem, and I don't know the way out of it.
Bev was saying that they noticed 40 years ago that there were problems. Here we are, 40 years later, fighting over who gets to catch the last fish. We've seen industrial development, deforestation and the effects of climate change. What we haven't seen is a plan. I applaud the efforts under way right now, but by gosh we should have had this 30 years ago.
5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, West Coast Aquatic Managment Association
I agree, and the best time other than yesterday is right now.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Yes, it's right now.
What don't we know enough about in order to really complete or complement a plan to get something? Again, the idea is to restore the abundance that our indigenous people certainly celebrated and worshipped spiritually over so many millennia. What is missing in our knowledge base? We need to get back to that.
5:05 p.m.
Executive Director, West Coast Aquatic Managment Association
I think there are probably a number of things. Certainly in the work that's happening on the west coast those data gaps are being identified and filled.
The folks at the table, as opposed to me as the facilitator, are really the ones to answer that for you. Some of the unknowns do come down to those marine conditions. That's a place where certainly more work needs to be done and more needs to be understood.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
I know Ms. Sellars was waving her hand there, Mr. Hardie. I'll give her a few seconds to give a quick answer.
5:05 p.m.
Member of the Team, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
I just want to say that's the problem. Today we're looking at salmon, but there is so much more to it and that's what we need to get away from. It's all connected. It has to be looked at as a whole. What happens in my territory is going to affect what happens in the ocean. What happens in the ocean is going to affect the salmon that come to my territory. We need an equal basis of indigenous people and all the science together, making decisions together. Until that comes together, we can't have a plan. There isn't going to be a plan that's going to work.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Hardie.
We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes or less.
Go ahead, please.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Thank you.
Chief Brown, I'm going to have to ask two questions right now, because of time.
Do you believe that a federal-provincial-first nations leadership table steered by salmon rehabilitation and restoration is a good idea and one that is supported by an engagement process with all user groups at a round table to make recommendations on priorities? Would this help begin a reconciliation process at a societal and user level that could assist in rebuilding wild salmon and salmon allocation?
Also, I'd love to get your comment on whether you think the minister should declare a wild salmon emergency.
5:05 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
They're both kind of leading questions. How could I say no?
We do need to collaborate—the province and the feds and first nations—in a respectful, tripartite manner. It goes back to that issue of respect. Absolutely, salmon are in crisis. There are no ifs, ands or buts. This didn't just happen. When I was in the Fisheries Resources Conservation Council 20 years ago, the sockeye salmon were outside of the Fraser River—and this is to support Bev's point—and the water was too warm to go up the river. We just dealt with a mountain pine beetle epidemic. The trees are dead. They can't hold the soil, and there's all of that silt in the Fraser River. Those are just examples of what she's saying and of how everything is connected.
Once we get our own house in order, like you say—first nations, B.C. and Canada—then we have to have those transboundary conversations with our neighbours because they're having the same problem we are.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
I talked about the $142 million that's allocated for B.C. salmon restoration funds. I know your nation has been raising a lot of concerns around stock assessment and resources for monitoring and science. Can you speak about the lack of resources?
Bev, thank you so much for talking about how we have to pull money into it because of the importance of it, but it does require resources now. Can you speak about the need for resources?
I also just want to say that my mom grew up in Ocean Falls. She shows the photos of the big salmon and how many, the abundance. Maybe I'll let you speak about that.
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
Sorry, you're going to have to ask that first question again.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Gord Johns NDP Courtenay—Alberni, BC
Are the resources that the government's investing to support your needs adequate right now?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
No, they're not. The reason why they're not is that a lot of times the money gets used up in administrative processes. Honestly, there's not enough money in the treasury to do what we need to do. There is absolutely not.
However, through a collaborative approach, working with first nations through indigenous guardians out on the land who are in connection with those resources—whether it's salmon or caribou—it makes sense to work with the local people because Canada doesn't have enough money to put people out into these rural locations. Build capacity locally. Provide the financial resources to train our people to be the eyes and ears on the land, to do the work for all Canadians and British Columbians. It's to our benefit. It makes a tremendous amount of sense.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Johns.
We'll now go to Mr. Mazier for five minutes or less, please.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You've all noted the importance of indigenous-created and developed programs and having to achieve success. As a rural Canadian, I understand the negative impacts that occur when a government takes this one-size-fits-all type of approach and doesn't consider the local knowledge.
Could you share some examples—and I'll start with Ms. Sellars—of how the current government has failed to consult and incorporate local first nations knowledge in restoring fisheries?
5:10 p.m.
Member of the Team, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
My example of seeing the changes 40 years ago is one example.
In my territory, we have mining. We did this map. Our department of two did a map of all the mining in our territory: placer mining, big mines and smaller mines. There's little or no regulation on placer mining. All of this is coming into the streams. That's where they're doing the mining. It's getting into all the waterways, so guardians and indigenous people.... Like I say, my sister is out there. She's an informal guardian, but she keeps an eye on what happens in the territory.
It's about listening to indigenous people and getting people out there with authority. This is not to say that what we say goes in the territory, but it's working with parks and with other people to make sure that the environment stays healthy.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
That's good. You answered it well.
Mr. Brown, do you believe there's been enough collaboration? Building on what Ms. Sellars had to say, have you noticed if it's harder to work with this government in the last, say, four to five years? Have there been things turning for the better or for the worse? If so, what are your opinions on that?
5:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Indigenous Leadership Initiative
I think the intention is good, the mandate letters and commitment to reconciliation, but sometimes.... The government is big and it's a challenge, but the intention is good. Everybody's experience is different. We've been fairly aggressive as a nation to advance a reconciliation agreement with Canada and British Columbia, and in that context, it's served us well.
I want to speak to the question that you asked Bev about examples. The whole thing is the example, that's why we're having this conversation, because salmon is so abysmal currently. I remember my brother talking about Rivers Inlet sockeye. He was fishing with my grandpa and the Rivers Inlet sockeye were hitting the net and the net started to sink and my grandpa told my brother, this is the last time we're going to see this.
There was a sea of boats on the water, and that was a gross mismanagement of those fish. We thought it was going to go on forever, and it isn't and it hasn't. Now here we are in this situation and that's the absolute example of how it hasn't worked, because, I'm going to say it again, it was disrespect to our people when we tried to have a view and they just totally disregarded what we were saying. Now people are recognizing there's validity and there is value in local knowledge to inform western science. Forty years of scientific data extrapolated out has gotten us to this position.