Fisheries Committee on Oct. 21st, 2020

[Allison Bernard]

Yes, I do, 100%. I support any nation in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick or the Maritimes that wants to do its own management plan under the terms and conditions of netukulimk.

Netukulimk is a very strong word. I started hearing this when I was a youth living with my grandfather, because he was a single fella living alone and I moved into his house. He is a very wise man. I learned a lot from my father also. They both taught me how to hunt and not to take more than what I need for our people and our tables.

That goes for fishing also. I never brought home a bagful of fish or a bagful of lobster. Any time I did, I would be put to the road, saying, “You go serve your neighbours and your family and others around our neighbourhood. Give all that stuff away, because they will need it.”

The concept of netukulimk is so deeply entrenched that when I'm doing yard work around my house, I won't cut certain trees or stuff that I don't have to, because they're not bothering me. This is Mother Nature's gift to us. We have plants and medicines everywhere that we've all lived in accordance and harmony with for thousands of years. That concept is entrenched in who you are and what you are.

We will be the first ones to fight in battle, as Shelley said when we were talking about salmon, and we developed our plan. However, even though we are entitled to take probably over 500 salmon from rivers in our area, we don't. We probably take maybe 30 or 40, if that, during the fall season, and that's not much.

We don't go and do stuff that might hurt a species, the way the cod were.... If everybody practised the concept of netukulimk, we'd still have codfish along our shores, and we don't have that. Species like herring used to turn our waters white in Crane Cove, where I live. That doesn't happen anymore. There's no groundfish in the Bras d'Or Lake. There's hardly any lobster because of overfishing.

Now, if everybody practised netukulimk, netukulimk wouldn't even give you those 50 tags. Our communities would laugh at you if you had 200 or 300 tags and you were asking for replacement tags of upwards of 50. As I said, and I'll go back to this, that 50 alone equates to 50,000 traps.

With all of these things that are taking place, we are nature's conservationists. We are the only life that they do have. Our respected elder Albert Marshall, who is a neighbour of mine, has always said that you have to speak on behalf of the species, because they can't speak for themselves, so it's on us to protect everything out there. I think if it boils down to having an industry fight, then we'll have that fight.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I really appreciate your indigenous knowledge and your connection and bringing us to that place through sharing the principles and the interpretation of those.

I have a question. Can you think of any rationale or any scenario through which you can justify cutting traps, cutting nets or destroying lobster as a way to support conservation?

[Allison Bernard]

Oh my God. That is such an absurd way to try to protect species or conservation, especially when you know that you have 50,000 extra traps out there in any given season, in any given year.

It's vandalism. It's taking away from people who are really impoverished, who are working these boats and who can barely afford to buy those traps and their vessels. I can't see anything that would actually help conservation there. If anything, they're going to destroy it, because they've left garbage under the sea everywhere.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I have only 30 seconds left. I just want to ask you if you support the Sipekne’katik in asserting their section 35 constitutional rights to self-govern, with their rights and the implementation of the lobster fishery management plan.

[Allison Bernard]

Yes, I do wholeheartedly, because I think first nations are the best resource people ever. We've been here for thousands of years, and we've shown the world and everybody around it that we do protect our Mother Nature and everything that's involved in it in this world, really.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Johns. Your time is up.

We've gone through a full round of questioning for each party. I know we were a bit late starting due to some difficulties earlier, but I would suggest that we do another round of probably two and a half minutes for each party, if everyone is in agreement. We may have to go a few minutes late.

I'm not seeing any objections.

Okay, we'll continue now with Mr. Arnold, for two and a half minutes, please, or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Ms. Denny and Mr. Bernard for being with us today.

When I see what's happening in Nova Scotia, it troubles me greatly.

I think back a few years ago to when I was president of the B.C. Wildlife Federation and we had conflict on the Fraser River over salmon fishing. There was a meeting scheduled to bring the parties together to discuss the different activities that were taking place to try to understand each other's positions better. The day that meeting was supposed to take place, there was a conflict on the river, and one of the first nations' chiefs was hit in the cheek with a pellet from a pellet gun. Luckily, there were no serious injuries, but because of the incident, the meeting that was supposed to be held—being hosted by DFO—was immediately called off.

I happened to be in the office of the organization at the time and worked with people in that office.... We contacted the first nations chief's office directly, and we were able to continue that meeting. We put it together so that both sides could come together to talk and understand each other's position much better.

Out of that came the Fraser River Peacemakers organization, which has worked for years to better understand the different positions of the fish harvesters on that river. There has been peace, to a great extent, compared to what was there before.

I will quickly ask both of you, do either of you feel that this might be part of the solution in this situation?

[Shelley Denny]

Mi'kmaw fishers and commercial lobster fishers are largely not interacting. That's pretty much how it's been. If negotiations are going on government to government, nation to nation, they are largely being excluded from those discussions. There's so much tension right now that it would be challenging to get people in a room, I think. I'm not sure.

At the same time, we often have looked to DFO for support, for having conservation officers out there to support Mi'kmaw rights, to educate the industry on Mi'kmaw rights. That hasn't happened. It hasn't happened for us for salmon, and that's something we still pursue on an annual basis.

I'm mildly optimistic, I would say, that that might be a way forward, but I think there definitely needs to be a calm-down period. I think some constructive communication is needed between the two groups, some sharing of information, and definitely some education on what's going on, what's being harvested and how many people are out there.

It's not right for anybody to take matters into their own hands, and cutting traps is the opposite of conservation. People need to harvest more now to get capital, to replace that capital cost they have struggled to put together. It's not a good position to be in, for sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Denny.

Mr. Arnold, your time has well passed.

Now we go to Mr. Morrissey, for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Denny. I would appreciate it if you could give me a short answer, because you've spoken about the conservation aspect.

I would like you to make a comment. Over the past 40 years, the management practices put in place in the fishery, both in terms of structured seasons as well as size limits on lobsters, have led this industry to be very lucrative, very valuable today.

What would be a primary reason or justification for moving away from that established management practice that has led this to being a very valuable fishery in Atlantic Canada?

Could you give me a quick response?

[Shelley Denny]

There really isn't too much movement away from that, other than the use of different seasons. Fishers cannot be on the water at the same time as commercial fishers. They'll just be outnumbered. They use much smaller boats and much smaller gear, and it's hard to tell who is cutting whose traps. At least in the off-season they have the opportunity to see who is out there and who is doing the damage. A lot of the conservation measures are adopted from the commercial industry. The Mi'kmaq are very good two-eyed seers. We're very interested in promoting conservation and using tools that have helped the industry succeed.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Okay. That's fine, Ms. Denny. You would generally agree that those management measures that evolved over the past have been positive for the industry in growing it.

My question would be of interest to Mr. Bernard, because there was a question earlier about the inaction of this government. There was a government in place before us for nine years. What was accomplished during that nine-year period by the former Conservative government?

[Allison Bernard]

There was actually no movement, in my opinion, because.... I was a part of the transition from the PCs to the Liberals. There was some, but when we started talking about treaty-related measures and coming back to the table and trying to discuss the implementation of our rights, there was really no movement there. There was just enough to justify to say there was contact made by government with the Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia.

Since then it really hasn't moved, since I've been a part of this. It's gotten more structured. There has been a lot more movement from current court decisions, and it becomes consultation and other stuff that's being placed in our region. It shouldn't have to come from the courts to express that. There should have been an open dialogue many years ago. I think 21 years is way too long for anybody, and it's been both governments....

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bernard.

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Ms. Gill for two and a half minutes or less.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I have another question for both witnesses, and I'd like to avoid politicizing the debate. I don't want to know who acted worse than the other one. I'd rather we look for solutions.

Ms. Denny, you've said a number of things that challenge me, such as how the government and the department could do a better job. In your article in the Chronicle Herald, you said that the concept of conservation—it comes back to this concept—is exploited and used politically by the department.

Can you give more details about what you think could be improved?

[Shelley Denny]

Yes, conservation is a tool now. It's a tool now to infringe on the rights of indigenous people. It is one of the means that government can use to infringe.

When you're working with conservation, there are different ways to do things. It's really not that difficult to imagine different ways of conserving. It doesn't have to be a one-size approach for everything all the time. That goes back to that knowledge system approach, where the values and beliefs are just as important, and when you do value conservation but you can't agree quite how to get there, that is one significant challenge.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 50 seconds.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Denny, I'd like you to tell us about conservation measures. I'm curious about conservation values and knowledge. Of course, members of the committee are also here to learn. So they will have a better understanding of how to resolve the crisis or impasse.

Can you tell us more about these values and knowledge, please?

[Shelley Denny]

Yes, it's important to have shared values between perspectives, such as the ability to be involved in fisheries governance. We see the Mi'kmaq having a willingness and a desire to initiate their own fisheries governance plans and opportunities. We also have to understand that we're not going to have the same values coming forward and we need innovation to address them, so we need to know what those perspectives are, what those values are and what's really important to those perspectives in order to move forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Gill.

We'll go now to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Our party respects the nation-to-nation process and dialogue. We think it's critical that it be protected here. We know that right now the minister is in talks with the Sipekne’katik. She said she won't negotiate in public. We agree that this is the right course.

We're sitting here studying this issue that is ongoing while the most important parties are in active discussions.

Ms. Denny, maybe you can help me with this question. Do you have any concern at your end, by the committee...that these could undermine these discussions?

[Shelley Denny]

I'm not sure if I can answer that. These discussions need to happen. Hopefully, those who are doing the negotiations are well informed and have the processes in place to make sure they are well informed.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. Bernard, do you have anything to add on that question? You've been in politics, so....