Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobster.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wilbert Marshall  Potlotek First Nation
Justin Martin  Fishery Coordinator, Mi’kmaq Rights Initiative, Potlotek First Nation
Peter Connors  President, Eastern Shore Fisherman's Protective Association
Martin Mallet  Executive Director, Maritime Fishermen's Union
Kevin Squires  President, Local 6, Maritime Fishermen's Union

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number five of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 19, 2020, the committee is resuming its study of the implementation of Mi'kmaq treaty fishing rights to support a moderate livelihood.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. I would like to start the meeting by providing you with some information following the motion that was adopted in the House on Wednesday, September 23, 2020.

The committee is now sitting in a hybrid format, meaning that members can participate either in person or by video conference. Witnesses may appear by video conference. All members, regardless of their method of participation, will be counted for the purpose of quorum. The committee’s power to sit is, however, limited by the priority use of House resources, which is determined by the individual party whips.

All questions must be decided by a recorded vote unless the committee disposes of them with unanimous consent or on division. The committee may deliberate in camera provided that it takes into account the potential risks to confidentiality inherent to such deliberations with remote participants.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Just so you are aware, the webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of “Floor”, “English” or “French”. Before speaking, click on the microphone icon to activate your own mike. When you are done speaking, please put your mike on mute to minimize any interference.

This is a reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. Should members need to request the floor outside of their designated time for questions, they should activate their mike and state they have a point of order. If a member wishes to intervene on a point of order that has been raised by another member, they should use the “raise hand” function. This will signal to the chair your interest in speaking and create a speakers list. In order to do so, you should click on “Participants” at the bottom of the screen. When the list pops up, you will see next to your name that you can click “raise hand”.

When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, the use of headsets with a boom microphone is mandatory for everyone participating remotely. Should any technical challenge arise, please advise the chair. Please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes in that case, as we need to ensure that all members are able to participate fully.

For those participating in person, proceed as you normally would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the directives from the Board of Internal Economy regarding masking and health protocols.

Should you wish to get my attention, signal me with a hand gesture, or at an appropriate time call out my name. Should you wish to raise a hand on a point of order, wait for an appropriate time and indicate to me clearly that you wish to raise a point of order.

With regard to a speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do the very best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether they are participating virtually or in person.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses for our first panel. From the Potlotek First Nation, we have Chief Wilbert Marshall, and from the Mi'kmaq Rights Initiative, we have Justin Martin, fishery coordinator.

We will now proceed with opening remarks.

Chief Marshall, you have five minutes or less.

6:40 p.m.

Chief Wilbert Marshall Potlotek First Nation

Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, fellow witnesses and guests.

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Chief, could you hold the mike close to your mouth for the translators, please?

6:40 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

Can you hear me now?

6:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Yes, we can hear you now with the mike held up.

6:40 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, fellow witnesses and guests.

My name is Chief Wilbert Marshall. I represent Potlotek First Nation. Thank you for the opportunity to discuss what's been taking place in Nova Scotia in regard to a fishing for a moderate livelihood.

For months we have worked, highly motivated, on our fisheries in Potlotek and our community. Our community demonstrated support of the assembly statement of standards, and we have developed a netukulimk livelihood fishery management plan which involves initial species and specific conditions for fishing lobster for our local LFAs. We were transparent in our work. We engaged with our community members and we successfully came to a consensus on a netukulimk livelihood fisheries plan.

We have shared our work with the federal government and local fishing associations. In fact, we posted our plan publicly so everyone could see and access our rules on conservation, safety and harvesting. We have tried to work nation to nation, but we have been met with DFO slamming doors in our face. It has become clear that DFO seems to think the only way forward is their way. This isn't a meaningful dialogue. This isn't reconciliation. This is the top-down approach, one that meets the needs of only one party.

The Mi'kmaq of Nova Scotia want to realize the vision that the late Donald Marshall Jr. had with respect to our inherent treaty right to a fishery surrounding Mi'kma'ki. We have the right to fish for our livelihood. As Mi'kmaq, we have the responsibility to protect this right. We are trying to demonstrate responsible leadership and governance of our fishery. Our people want to better their lives by earning a moderate livelihood in an honourable way, one that has been part of our whole way of living since time immemorial.

Canada's approach has continued to fail us. We expect better and we demand better. DFO continues to look at a treaty right to a moderate livelihood through a colonial lens. They have continued to maintain their position that we should fish under their rules, using their licences and their reasons. We have the right to self-govern, and that includes the right to govern our fisheries and to develop our own sustainable livelihood fisheries, separate from the commercial fisheries.

Wela'lioq . Thank you.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Chief Marshall.

We'll now go to Mr. Martin for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

6:45 p.m.

Justin Martin Fishery Coordinator, Mi’kmaq Rights Initiative, Potlotek First Nation

Good evening, Mr. Chair, members of the committee, fellow witnesses and guests.

I'm Justin Martin from Millbrook First Nation. I'm the Mi'kmaq fisheries coordinator for the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaw Chiefs, operating through the Mi'kmaq rights initiative. I'm here supporting Potlotek First Nation.

I would like to reiterate the opening statement of Regional Chief Prosper that it is beyond the scope of this committee to provide any legal definition of the legal concepts of what is a moderate livelihood and what is a moderate livelihood fishery. We must first understand our people's needs and empower them to develop what truly is a livelihood for them and their families.

Over the past 20 years, DFO has attempted to assimilate the Mi'kmaq livelihood fishery into the DFO management system, a colonized system that is not only not historically or culturally relevant to Mi'Kmaq values and principles but is also a system that focuses on creating wealth from our dwindling resources. Over and over, this system has failed to protect the resources our indigenous peoples have sustainably used for thousands of years. We are the rightful stewards of our resources.

Mr. Chair, this is not a regulatory issue; this is a rights issue. This is about the Mi'kmaq nation managing our fishery in accordance with our cultural values and principles, which is our inherent right. This government must change how they view the primary function of this control when addressing the rights of indigenous peoples. We must decolonize that control by providing mandates to work with our indigenous peoples—not to control them, but to co-manage the fisheries and codevelop the lands to empower the indigenous peoples of this country.

Quantifying what a moderate livelihood is has never been my intention; it is, rather, to demonstrate what our grassroots members' interpretation of that treaty right is through implementation. This method has provided the critical data to begin to understand what our members believe is a “moderate livelihood”. Our level of harvesting is being managed in accordance with netukulimk, taking only what we need to sustain our families and communities. We do not harvest to create wealth for individuals. If there is a conservation issue, it is not one that rests on the shoulders of the livelihood harvesters but one that rests on the shoulders of the commercial fishing industry.

Currently, there is very little language in the DFO-managed commercial lobster fishery directed towards sustainability. Here is an excerpt from the netukulimk livelihood plan regarding this topic:

Sustainability involves five distinct factors: environmental, social, economic, cultural and spiritual. Each of these are principal factors for the sustainability of a Mi'kmaq fishery livelihood.

Each of these sustainable factors is defined alongside netukulimk to form the baseline management values for the livelihood fishery.

I would like to close with a quote from Grand Chief Norman Sylliboy: “Let us do what we have always done.”

Thank you. Wela'lioq.

6:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you both for that presentation.

We'll now go to questioning.

Up first, for the Conservative Party, is Mr. d'Entremont, for six minutes or less.

6:45 p.m.

Conservative

Chris d'Entremont Conservative West Nova, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Chief Marshall and Mr. Martin, it's a pleasure to see you here tonight to provide us with a little context. As you know, I represent the area that has St. Marys Bay in it, so I have been spending a lot of time talking to lots of folks in regard to the fishery issue with Sipekne'katik.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been very inconsistent with its approach to fisheries management in general, whether it be indigenous or not. We just have to look as far as your moderate livelihood fishery to see that. On the one hand, the DFO went and hauled your traps, but here in St. Marys Bay the DFO didn't haul Sipekne'katik's traps. Why are the two bands being treated so differently in the same management zone by DFO?

Would either Chief Marshall or Mr. Martin want to comment on that?

6:50 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

That's a good question. We don't know, either. That's the question we'd like answered. Why is DFO treating us differently?

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chris d'Entremont Conservative West Nova, NS

Could it be the size of your fishery versus the size of what's happening with Sipekne'katik? I know your size was a little smaller than what it was doing. Maybe it's the zone you're in. LFA 29 is a smaller zone. I'm trying to figure it out too, and I know a lot of people are asking me the same question.

6:50 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

What DFO is telling us in letter form is that it doesn't recognize livelihood fishers. We have no licence. We're not authorized. That's what DFO keeps telling us. It's the second letter that we've had within maybe three weeks.

DFO took our traps out of the water, and they were confronted by our fishermen. The last thing we need is another Burnt Church. We don't want that. We want to work side by side.

Maybe Justin could answer some more.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

Mr. Chair, I have a point of order.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Go ahead, Madame Gill.

6:50 p.m.

Bloc

Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC

The interpreter is telling me that Mr. Marshall's microphone is not close enough to his mouth and that he has been unable to interpret since the witness started talking.

6:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Chief Marshall, please keep the microphone closer to your mouth when you're speaking. We will be able to get the interpretation done properly.

Mr. d'Entremont, please continue.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chris d'Entremont Conservative West Nova, NS

We're trying to show the inconsistency of DFO in general. The example we had between Sipekne'katik and Potlotek is a good example of that inconsistency.

Let me move on to my next issue, the issue of adjacency. Chief Carol Potter of Bear River First Nation, which is one of the bands in southwest Nova Scotia, in West Nova, has written an important letter to the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans underlining the current lobster conflict between commercial fishers and native fishers taking place in their traditional territory. They want to exercise a moderate livelihood fishery as well, and they feel it should include principally St. Marys Bay.

Have you put some thought into it, or do you support Bear River in their efforts?

6:50 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

I'll ask Justin to answer.

6:50 p.m.

Fishery Coordinator, Mi’kmaq Rights Initiative, Potlotek First Nation

Justin Martin

You're giving me the hard one, Chief, thanks.

First and foremost, I believe all the Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq chiefs support all moderate livelihood fishing activity. The main issue I perceive, being at that table, is the communication on the sharing of areas. If there is an overlap of fishing within one area.... Personally, I know that we've been developing policy at the assembly level to provide some context and fluid communication between the two communities to ensure impacts are minimalized.

6:50 p.m.

Conservative

Chris d'Entremont Conservative West Nova, NS

An important part of that letter says that the band wasn't consulted when Sipekne'katik was going to be coming down to do fishing in that area. I believe there was a letter from Chief Robinson as well that pretty much said the same thing. They were not necessarily aware of the Sipekne'katik plan or of the management plan for St. Marys Bay.

The next question revolves around the work of the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaw Chiefs and maybe some of the work, Justin, that you do. How is that conversation going among the chiefs? Maybe you can throw in a little bit on why you feel Chief Paul left the group.

6:50 p.m.

Potlotek First Nation

Chief Wilbert Marshall

Let me answer that question for you.

We've been pretty transparent with our plan right from the start, even before this, about six months prior. Everybody knew what we were doing. I wasn't hiding it. The assembly knew about it. We also support each other. The assembly also played a big hand in coming up with our plan.

We went to the community. We went to our fishermen on Zoom. At the end of it, we had a community meeting with all the protocols we had to follow for COVID.

Chief Terry was saying it's just a little slow for him, a little redundant. We know it's a slow process, but it's not our fault. I don't want to lay blame, but DFO, the minister's office, didn't know what was going on at the local office. That was a big factor.

We just want to do the right thing. We want to go fishing. We didn't back down. We're still fishing. I hope that pretty soon we'll keep fishing one year until December 1.

I can't speak to other communities and their plans and what they're doing. We're going to support them, though. We'll be there for them.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you. Your time is up, Mr. d'Entremont.

6:55 p.m.

Conservative

Chris d'Entremont Conservative West Nova, NS

Oh, gee. I had all kinds of questions.

6:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Six minutes aren't long when you're having fun.

We'll now go to Mr. Battiste for six minutes or less, please.