Fisheries Committee on Oct. 29th, 2020

[Martin Mallet]

I was just about to say that.

I'm also a marine biologist by trade. I've been in this position for about four years now. Before that, I worked on resource management and development for lobster. What I've been seeing in the last few years in the Baie Sainte-Marie area is a fishery going on in a time of year where the catchability of lobster is four or five times higher per trap than if you were fishing in the late fall or winter.

At the end of the day, I think it would be really interesting to have on this panel a DFO biologist who's actually studying this area of the bay and LFA 34. LFA 34 is a huge area, but Baie Sainte-Marie is extremely small, and it has its own particular ecosystem, so the effect of this—quote, unquote—“illicit” fishery is significant. From what I've heard, there are some numbers out there stating that there is a decrease of about 60% of the commercial lobster population in that area.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

In the biology of the area, catch rates are far different during a certain time of the month. At the August point, at the September point, catch rates can be two to three to four times more than what they would be in the normal fishery.

There's also the issue of what kind of lobster is being found in the trap. Sometimes it's not just what is being marketed; it's also what is at the bottom of the trap that doesn't survive. Talk a little bit about the survivability of lobster within a very full trap.

[Martin Mallet]

There are many issues that will affect survivability. There's the density, but also the time on the bottom, and whether lobsters stay there for several days, and also if it's a warm day or a warm week out on the water. I mean, you have many of these lobsters staying on the boat for a while before going back in the water. The death rate is high. That's for sure.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Mr. Chair, I'm good with that. Let's share it around a bit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have just under two minutes left.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

It's not like me not to share some of these things.

I think Mr. Connors alluded to this. I was going to ask a little bit about the original Marshall response from the Chrétien government, which bought a lot of different licences for different bands on the Atlantic. Can you tell me about the challenge of what commercial fishers are seeing as an opportunity to fish on behalf of the bands that are leasing them out, versus providing employment for band members in the area? I don't know if Mr. Connors or Mr. Mallet wants to take that question.

[Peter Connors]

Yes, I can respond to that.

Part of the premise of my presentation was that there's access within the bands that could provide a moderate livelihood. I don't see the need, because most of this access is being leased out and fished by people outside of the bands. Then there has to be a second competing fishery, but there are a lot of people in my community here who wanted to get access to the fishery and couldn't get access to it. There were some who couldn't get access to even be crew members on boats, not to say licences. I think it is a concern, yes, for some of the band members.

[Chris d'Entremont, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. d'Entremont.

We now go to Mr. Morrissey to bring it home for the evening. You have five minutes or less.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair. My question is to Martin Mallet.

I first met Martin in 2004, and I've always been impressed with your impeccable biological knowledge of the fishery and what you have done over the years.

For the record, our government inherited a department had that faced years and years of budget cuts in key areas of conservation, protection and enforcement, which is a big part of where we're at today.

In two particular areas.... You referenced illegal sales of lobster. Can you elaborate quickly? Do you see that as part of some of the background in the current dispute in Nova Scotia and its growing influence within the industry as a whole?

[Martin Mallet]

That's a good question.

This situation is going on in some areas, I think in the St. Marys Bay area in particular. We're talking to many of our members down there. It's been going a while, since even before the Marshall decision—since the Sparrow decision, actually, before that. There has been a summer fishery—illegal, illicit, call it what you want—going on in the summertime.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

When you say “illegal,” are you referring to the sale of product for cash?

[Martin Mallet]

Yes, absolutely.

Part of these fisheries sometimes are done under the guise of the food, social and ceremonial fisheries. There's nothing wrong with the FSC fishery, but when it comes time for selling the product, things get out of hand. You need to have control over the volumes that are taken out of the water. The timing is important too. If you do these fisheries in the summer months when the lobster is reproducing, when the berried females are ripe with fragile eggs, you're multiplying by many factors the impact that you're having on the resource.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Could you expand a bit more from your background as a biologist? You've worked in the industry. You were key in developing lobster larvae-production in northern New Brunswick, in the Shippagan area, which had a lobster fishery that was devastated at that time. Am I correct in that?

You built it up through following conservation measures and key biological information in key season areas and carved the size to a very stable, strong fishery today. Could you expand a bit on the impact of fishing lobster off season from the commercial fishery in small, restricted key areas with warm water?

[Martin Mallet]

To cite your example, we went from a fishery where lobster fishermen would catch about 5,000 to 8,000 pounds in the Caraquet area back in the early 2000s—Mr. Cormier could testify to that—to a fishery that's gone up tenfold because of the conservation measures that fishermen have put in place—

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

They're following science conservation and all the key critical areas. That's crucial to the long-term road at this fishery.

[Martin Mallet]

Absolutely.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

With the time I have left, would you comment briefly.... There's been an impression nationally that nothing has occurred since Marshall, that there's been a vacuum, that there's been no outreach from the Government of Canada to first nations communities vis-à-vis access to a lobster fishery.

As you wrap up on your time, can you give us a picture of what has occurred in your part of Atlantic Canada vis-à-vis where your first nation fishery is today versus 1999?

[Martin Mallet]

There have been significant advances. I think that the Ken Coates report that I mentioned in my presentation accounts for that. We've gone from almost zero commercial fishery revenues for most of the indigenous groups on the east coast to many of these groups today thriving because of the fishery.

It's also the indirect revenues from other activities that have been generated because of the fishery. Some of the bands are buying processing plants and processing their own lobster and snow crab and other fisheries. These employ many people from their groups, as well as local non-indigenous workers in the coastal communities. In some instances, about 10% to 15% of band members participate in jobs related to fishery, either directly on the water or at the plants.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

Thank you to our guests for this evening and the information that they've provided to the committee through their testimony and through questioning this evening. We appreciate it.

I will tell Madame Gill that we will carve out some committee business time at the next meeting of the committee. We'll make sure that's done as requested.

I want to say thank you to the clerk and the analysts and the translators, and of course to all of our staff for their help in making this evening a success.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I would have liked a full meeting. I think that a number of motions have not been moved. We have to see when we will call in witnesses from the department and the minister. Much work remains to be done, and I don't know what the committee will be able to do.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I don't know if we can allocate an entire committee meeting, but I will check with the clerk ahead of time to see what's actually scheduled with regard to witnesses.

From what I hear, I think it was the intent of the committee to get this particular study done as quickly as possible, based on what was happening at this time. We will carve out a bit of time for committee business, but I don't know if we can give a full meeting to it at this point.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Chair, it's more important for this committee to hear from witnesses on this critical issue that is demanding everybody's attention at the moment. I disagree with spending two hours on committee business.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

That's fine. We'll work it out along the way.

Good night, everyone. Thank you for your participation. Enjoy the constituency week coming up next week.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

No, it's not riding week—