Fisheries Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Thank you for the opportunity.

In my opening remarks, in that document, I cited a benchmark report that we conducted a few years ago on traceability specifically. We compared Canada with other nations around the world, including Europe and the United States.

Now Canada is a lagging country, and in my view the EU, by far, is farther advanced in traceability standards, just because Europe is complicated and they've been able to figure out, I would say, harmonized standards amongst several nations. As I said, inherent to food fraud or fish traceability is the nature its being a global market. I'm not sure if the committee knows, but 90% of what we consume in Canada is imported and we export 90% of what we produce. It's the same in the U.S. approximately.

So it's a global problem and the EU has really made some major progress in understanding those risks relating to how global the industry is.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Chair, do I have time for another question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

No, we've gone over the time.

We'll go to our next round now of five-minute questioning, and Mr. Arnold, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. Today I'll start off with a couple of questions for Mr. Zimmerman.

Mr. Zimmerman, you mentioned the NOAA system and tracking of illegal, unreported and unregulated fisheries. I think you said it was restricted to 13 species. Is the current tracking system sufficient to address IUU fishing and illegal sales, or what are the gaps that need to be bridged to reduce that?

[Scott Zimmerman]

I think the industry hasn't been challenged for a long time here in the United States— some of its larger components—but it's those medium and smaller importers that have been falling underneath the radar and they continue to grow and create more of a footprint in our fisheries here in the U.S. I think there's a challenge in auditing these systems and understanding what the chains of custody are and what's natural to a fishery in another country, how many hands product moves through, and then finally whether the raw material was sourced from an IUU source.

I think there are also challenges in understanding the laws and regulations in those other countries and how NOAA auditors are able to digest those laws and whether requirements are being met in the countries of origin. That's also very concerning.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

There was also some discussion earlier today about the certification systems and how they vary from one jurisdiction or system to another. Do you think there's a requirement for standardization or a consolidation of certification systems, and what would be the best body to oversee that?

[Scott Zimmerman]

I think there are some structures coming into place, whether it's the global Food Safety Initiative or the Global Sustainable Seafood Initiative. Those are benchmarking tools. I think it's important for them to work with the certification bodies they're accrediting to do those audits and to enable those certification bodies to basically do a harmonization or a study across the audits so that they're not auditing the same thing twice and can send one auditor and do the recall exercise, do the traceability exercise, do the quality-management system exercises, because a lot of those components are very similar to each other across standards. If these certification bodies were training their auditors to do these integrated audits, it would save a lot of those processors a lot of money. But it's up to them.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'll switch to a question for Mr. Charlebois now. You mentioned that current rules and laws seem to be sufficient but that enforcement is lacking. Is that enforcement within Canada, enforcement in other countries, or enforcement of what's being imported into Canada? Can you elaborate a little further on that?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

I would say that the major problem I would focus on is imports, to be honest. There's a lack of surveillance, and compliance becomes an issue domestically, I would say. We do already have a lot of regulations in Canada to support our companies right here in our own backyard. Frankly, for the most part, they do a really good job. I've visited aquaculture facilities in Nova Scotia, and they are very much aware of rules.

With regard to imports, I don't think that we're monitoring enough of what comes into our own country. To Mr. Zimmerman's point, I think there is something that needs to be done there.

Going back to the MSC example, again, it's a global enterprise, a global surveillance system. DNA testing is one way to make sure that the species you have in front of you is consistent with what's on the label. A lot of grocers are focusing more on that technology.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We will now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses. This is fantastic information we're getting.

Just as a heads-up for you, Chair, I will be moving a motion a little bit later in our business section to add a day to this study. There are some people we need to talk to.

I want to focus, as Mr. Perkins has done, on the end-consumer. The end-consumer will not understand the Latin name of a species. They may not care very much about the type of gear used, or anything else. There are people who do care for good reasons. We need to think about ways, perhaps through recommendations, of helping the end-consumer know at a glance what they're buying.

I'll start with you, Professor Charlebois. Is it professor or doctor, or either one?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

It's either one.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay.

Perhaps I'll start with Madame Boivin as well.

Let's look at the trail of the fish from the time it's caught to the time it ends up on somebody's plate. Who has the pen when it comes to the labelling? Who has the opportunity to label that fish or to change the labelling on that fish? We have processors, wholesalers, retailers and restaurants. Are there other people or other entities in that chain that have an opportunity to influence the label?

Professor Charlebois.

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Absolutely. I think your opening comment was quite important here.

When I talk about food fraud, I often say to people that if you walk into a sushi place—before COVID— and it's an “all you can eat” sushi bar for $15 a person, you have to ask yourself some questions. This is really the problem. It's the will to ask the right questions. The power belongs to the consumer in the end. The last thing that our five major...want is a food fraud scandal. I would include Loblaws, Sobeys, Metro—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I do understand that, but I need to get a precise answer to the question.

By the way, we had a sushi place in Metrotown in Burnaby that was right next to a pet store. I didn't want to throw that in, but....

Who actually has control of the label along the supply chain?

Madame Boivin, do you have any thoughts on that?

[Laura Boivin]

In fact, the information related to labelling can be transmitted at any step in the food chain. It can be posted on the menu board of a restaurant, for example, where the origin of the trout being served could be posted, or by means of a small sign posted on the front of the fish counter at the grocery store.

That said, there are many inspection bodies. For example, in Quebec, there is the ministry of agriculture, fisheries and food, or MAPAQ. Everything depends on the type of certification obtained by an organization, and whether or not the certification falls under federal regulation. For example, MAPAQ can ensure that the product has not been misrepresented. If a grocery store has a smoker, the standards will be different. It really varies from one place to another.

Could federal standards apply to what is written on a menu board in a restaurant? Who will ensure that the standards are followed?

Despite all possible goodwill, I doubt that compliance with these standards can be ensured, since the current Canadian regulations are not being enforced and products in violation of the regulations are easy to find on supermarket shelves.

I understand that we want to equip ourselves with very broad standards, but I don't believe that it is possible to enforce them, given our current resources.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have to throw this open because I don't know who could answer the question.

Is there somebody in the supply chain who is really the pivot point for the veracity of the labelling of the fish, or somebody who could be, if you like, deputized to be responsible for the accuracy of the label?

I would look at, for instance, the wholesaler who would perhaps buy from the processor and then distribute to everybody else, but I don't know. Are there any suggestions there?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. You're out of time.

If our witnesses have any suggestions, perhaps they could provide the answer in writing.

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll allow Mr. Charlebois to answer Mr. Hardy's question, because the subject is a very important one. We want to hear this information.

Mr. Charlebois, can you answer the question?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Thank you, Mrs. Desbiens.

Mr. Hardy's question is somewhat complex. A distinction needs to be drawn between the retail world and the food service industry. The issue of fraud does not crop up in the same way in both places.

Concerning retail sales, the distributors are really the ones who control the chain, the rules and labelling integrity.

With respect to food services, it's the Wild West, if I may say so. There are all sorts of practices, and it's very difficult to monitor everything. The committee recently heard from representatives of Oceana Canada, so I imagine that they told you about the results of their research, which I contributed to, by the way.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Earlier, you spoke about rewarding best practices.

In your opinion, how should best practices be rewarded?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

That's a good question.

I was expecting the question, but I don't know if I have a good answer for you. Frankly, the tax burden on some companies is quite heavy. The government could look at that issue.

The advantages of certification could also be promoted. I'll give you an example. At the seafood counter of a grocery store, where products featured certification by MSC and the Ocean Wise Seafood program, I asked the employee behind the counter what that meant. He didn't know. There is seemingly a lack of information. I was the first customer in four years to ask that question. The certification programs are not explained to the general public.

Public awareness campaigns could help the market, in my opinion. They could explain what certification programs entail, and that could reassure consumers.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I am sorry to interrupt you, but I see that I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Madam Desbiens, your time is up. Time goes fast when you're having fun.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I see that Mr. Zimmerman has some follow-up thoughts he is hoping to make. Maybe I'll ask somewhat of an open-ended question, and you can add to that if you'd like.

Mr. Zimmerman, I was hoping that you might be able to expand a little bit on the following. We spoke to Skipper Otto, for example, who had some really novel approaches to tracking products. I wonder if you have anything you want to share with the committee that you feel would be some solutions to traceability that would be important for us to hear about.

Thank you.