Fisheries Committee on March 3rd, 2022

[Scott Zimmerman]

What I have to say about blockchain and all of these QR codes is that these are tough times. Yes, some of the larger suppliers can make those financial commitments to that technology, but, by and large, it's not going to happen overnight. There's a wide variety of RFID tags.

Here in the United States, we had a challenge with coming up with a low-tech traceability solution. There's a wide variety, like the Internet of things, tags, traceability codes and techniques, to go about tracing product through the chain of custody. I don't think those would be hard to find.

I was saying “no” about an issue that you guys brought up in mentioning government supporting third party certification. That's a very dangerous game to get involved in. I say that because I've seen facilities that have been audited under a third party get written up by the government for not having critical systems in place like HACCP programs. For them to be certified, where those food safety programs are a critical component of certification, to then get written up by the government for not even having that program is a major conflict. I thought I'd point that out.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmerman, for clarifying that. It's good information for us to have as a committee.

To Dr. Charlebois—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron. You have about two seconds left, so you're not going to have time to ask a question or to get an answer.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I can try.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Everyone can try.

We'll now go to Mr. Zimmer for five minutes or less, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, again, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today.

My first question is for Mr. Zimmerman.

I know the Fraser Valley up in Canada well. One thing that I've brought up before at the committee is the IUU fishing that happens. Often it's black-market fishing. The fish get traded for cash and cocaine. I'm just curious to know if you have similar examples in Florida where you have seen the IUU fishery directly involved with organized crime.

[Scott Zimmerman]

I think I heard something not long ago about the eel fishery in Maine being involved in some illegal practices. It's not a stretch of the imagination that anything with high value—sea urchin, caviar, lobster—is used as a currency here in the United States.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I'm not too familiar with your traceability standards other than what you've just explained. I guess I would just ask for your feedback on this. What would the impacts be on applying traceability to those same groups of food to somehow stem organized crime's involvement in those—in caviar and lobster, as you said? Do you think it would decrease the marketing in the black market?

[Scott Zimmerman]

At the end of the day, it's a matter of the competency of the people who are conducting those traceability audits of those systems. There's a very limited number of boots on the ground that can conduct that type of reconciliation, so they have to push their resources in one direction.

Most of the time it's a ready-to-eat product that's going to impact the safety of our population. Those products are higher risk, like the leafy greens and stuff that are getting written up for salmonella, E. coli or any pathogenic bacteria. The concern isn't the monetary value, but rather the value of the safety of our population.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Okay, thank you.

I'll go on to Ms. Boivin.

You had some comments about traceability. I have some familiarity with this in agriculture and I've watched how effective it can be. We dealt with the term “organic”. It's a term that gets slapped on stickers and put on everything, it seems, but now there is a standard. There had to be an agreed-upon standard of what “organic” actually means, and there are different levels of organic.

You talked about not wanting to have any added regulation or any added practices that add to costs, etc. If you think the standards are adequate, who actually comes and challenges you to prove that those standards are being met? Who comes in and looks over your shoulder to make sure that what you're saying is accurate?

[Laura Boivin]

At Fumoir Grizzly, since the beginning of January, we have undergone four audits related to certification, including one for the SQF standard recognized by the Global Food Safety Initiative, or GFSI. This standard is required by most of our clients on the retail market.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

For us who don't know the acronyms, maybe you can explain what they mean, to the best of your ability anyway. Thank you.

[Laura Boivin]

The GFSI organization brings together international standards such as BRC and SQF. Unfortunately, I don't know offhand what these abbreviations stand for, but I could provide you with the information later, if you wish.

The three certification audits that we have undergone since the beginning of the year are very costly for Fumoir Grizzly. In fact, for each certification, we must pay the person who comes on site and incur other related costs.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Are these standards...? Are the ones who come to do the audit from Europe? Do they come over and do the checking, or is it oriented in Quebec? Can you say where they come from?

[Laura Boivin]

Yes, the person who conducts certification audits for the GFSI organization is from Quebec. The independent auditors who are sent to us are third parties, often hired by the company NSF International, which is another abbreviation I can't spell out for you. NSF provides independent auditors to certification bodies, and these auditors review each of the certification or regulation criteria. In this case, SQF had 300 criteria, including labelling standards.

I will come back to one point. The organization responsible for verifying the information on the packaging of retail products is the Canadian Food Inspection Agency. It has a division that studies the information on our labels and on our packaging in particular.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer. You've gone way over.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway, for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Hello to colleagues.

To the witnesses here, thank you for your testimony and, quite frankly, to all of the witnesses who have come here to date. It's been quite a learning experience to look at the strengths, weaknesses and gaps that we have in front of us.

I also want to thank Madame Desbiens for putting this study forward. I know that MP Morrissey looked at this in the previous Parliament as well. It's exceptionally important to Canadians.

My question is for Mr. Charlebois.

As I mentioned, many witnesses have testified about the need to act on and address seafood issues in Canada. You talked about it a bit here and some witnesses have as well, but I wonder if we can do a deeper dive on what other countries are doing with regard to this issue. I believe we can learn a lot from what they are doing with respect to traceability.

I'll start with Mr. Charlebois on this particular question. Do you know of any other countries that have implemented a successful boat-to-plate traceability program, and what systems, programs and mechanisms have these countries put in place to fight seafood fraud? Can we start there and maybe do a deeper dive on those countries and what they're doing? What has worked, what hasn't worked and what can we learn in clear terms?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Absolutely.

We've had discussions with the Center for Food Integrity in the United Kingdom quite a bit. The one thing I've learned through the years is that they actually take food fraud seriously.

So far, the CFIA has received a budget of $25 million over five years to look into food fraud. I have been working with the CFIA for over 15 years. Early on, they never considered food fraud to be an important priority for the federal agency. Now it seems to be, but they can't really do much with $25 million.

In the U.K. and in Europe in particular, we are seeing some movement around working with industry and awareness from consumers, generally speaking. I would say the boat-to-plate traceability system really boils down to what kind of certification program you're using in order to secure and reassure the public. I'm seeing a lot of education in the EU that comes from these agencies to the public. The public pressure is real.

During the pandemic, we saw five reports out of the EU looking at food fraud. In Canada, I have yet to see one.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's interesting, indeed.

When I used to teach at the University of Calgary in the continuing education program there, I would ask this on any given topic or on any given challenge. This builds on what you're saying here, but if we were to look at three things we need to do as a government today, Mr. Charlebois, what would they be?

It could be what you just mentioned and it's a chance for you to expand on it. I do like the idea of education and it speaks to a very integrated approach to getting the information out.

In terms of systems, communication and education, what are three things that, if we were to leave this room today, we could talk to our colleagues and the government about to ensure we push things in the right direction?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

Three things? I don't want to take too much time.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I don't want to stop you at three. Three's great, but if you have four, go for four.

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

One is that we need to know exactly the scope of the problem. We do not know in Canada. How big is the problem here?

The second thing I would do is design and create a safe place for industry and consumers to go to declare suspicious cases.

The third thing is to encourage compliance and reward compliance as much as possible.

Also, increase policing, I'm afraid. I hate to say this, but some companies out there are really damaging the reputation of the industry.

I would look at those four things.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I have 19 seconds left.

This may have been brought up in previous testimony. Mr. Charlebois, how long did it take the EU to put the system in place that they have now? How long was the development of that plan and how long has it been in existence?

[Dr. Sylvain Charlebois]

It's been since 2013. The horse meat scandal they went through really raised a lot of eyebrows and policy changed almost overnight. Research on food fraud was well funded and new technologies came about. That's why Europe is a bit ahead of the game here.

I'm not suggesting that Canada needs a crisis, but I think we need to move before we do have a major crisis on our hands.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.