Fisheries Committee on April 30th, 2024

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our newest witness here today.

Madam Bergeron, I'll give you the opportunity to finish your sentence and what you were trying to say there, and then I'll go to my first question. If you want to finish what you were saying, I'm perfectly happy for you to do that.

[Myriam Bergeron]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

What I am going to say is quite straightforward and will not come as a surprise: The main threat to salmon populations is without a doubt climate change.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Madam Bergeron, are you noticing any particular viruses? What are your observations regarding what you're seeing in salmon? Are you seeing the sizes decreasing? Are you seeing viruses? What information can you provide to us on what you're seeing at your end for us to compare to the Yukon River?

[Myriam Bergeron]

If it is specifically related to aquaculture, it is well documented in eastern Canada. There are indeed certain diseases and parasites associated with aquaculture, such as sea lice. Other diseases associated with it include infectious salmon anemia, which is a very difficult viral disease to contain, more so than parasites. These problems are also being observed in eastern Canada.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'll loop back to Chief Frost, if Chief Frost is still here. I think she is. This is also for Mr. Gerberding.

A theme in some of the testimony you provided today is the problematic ways in which decisions have been made in the past and continue in many ways today. It's about the siloing of responsibility among different levels of government, which perhaps are not taking into account first nations' rights, knowledge and traditional ways of being. As Mr. Gerberding mentioned, we have to be doing things differently.

Chief Frost, can you provide some further information about the importance of having all levels of government—in particular the Government of Canada—looking at fewer silos and more interconnected responsibility to ensure we are addressing the emergency at hand?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

What a great question.

If you look at the mandate letter of the Minister of DFO, it talks about the mandate to look at better integration of traditional knowledge in planning and policy decisions. It speaks about the collaboration of fishery arrangements. As indigenous knowledge-keepers, we speak about meeting climate obligations. That relationship has to be built, and it's a gap that has been missing historically. It's truly an obligation to develop a collaborative conservation strategy.

A lot has been done already. We have our agreements. We celebrated 30 years since signing our self-government agreement and 50 years of our Umbrella Final Agreement. We've set the high-water mark. This is a huge opportunity for us to continue to collaborate with the minister. The mandates in the minister's mandate letter are the same as those in the context of our self-government agreement and the international agreement. Now we have this moratorium and the political agreement.

It's a huge window, as I said. We have to look at it all, make it work and take on best practices. We have not done that historically, so now is the time for us to do that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chief Frost.

Mr. Gerberding, do you have any additional thoughts to add to this topic?

[Tim Gerberding]

Well, yes, I have a few.

I worked on the Tr'ondëk Hwëch'in Final Agreement. A number of cases about land use have gone to the courts, but the Supreme Court has confirmed that one of the major intents of the Yukon land claim is providing Yukon first nations people with meaningful participation in the management of public resources. Of course, that includes fish. I think the words we often use are “co-government” and “co-management”.

I think it's very critical that first nations values come to the fore here and are respected. Again, this means elevating conservation above economic interests.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I notice I only have 30 seconds left. I'm trying to think of the most important question to ask in 30 seconds.

I can't agree more about the importance of conservation being taken before economic benefits. I noticed this continues to be a theme in many areas. I think it's about addressing how profits are not going to provide us with the sustainable marine ecosystems we require to ensure that first nations' rights are upheld, that coastal communities are thriving and that we have these stocks for generations to come. I can't agree with you more on that.

With that, I took up my 30 seconds without a question, but I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

My first question is for Chief Frost.

I was shocked when you said that DFO's C and P—conservation and protection—enforcement is not on the river. How long has it been since there was any DFO enforcement on the river?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I can't answer that question, but I know they've not been there for a number of years. They moved their enforcement agency to B.C. We have no presence on the Porcupine or Yukon main stems.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

While we've seen a dramatic decline over the years in the Pacific salmon stocks and their returns, that obviously didn't alarm DFO enough to put some resources into enforcement.

[Chief Pauline Frost]

I would say not. You're seeing all of the however many billions of dollars going into B.C. and not going into the Yukon. We have no enforcement in the Yukon.

The decisions about the closure are left up to the indigenous communities to implement. We are left to implement the enforcement measures ourselves, which is not fair because the self-government agreement sets parameters. It is also Canada's obligation to participate equally in effective co-management.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What level of enforcement resources have you asked for and would you like to see this committee recommend in its report?

[Chief Pauline Frost]

For a presence on the ground, you need to look at collaboration among the Government of Yukon, Yukon first nations and Canada. We all have an obligation.

Taking a softer approach to management rather than an enforcement approach will get us a long way to collaboration, and then we need to allow our participants in our communities to do their part to preserve, protect and conserve the few salmon that migrate by their communities.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Gerberding, where are the pink and chum commercial farms you speak of located?

[Tim Gerberding]

There are some in Canada, some in the United States and many in Asia. I understand that Japan and Korea have a number, and so does Russia.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

How would the treaty that's been signed and the moratorium address that issue? If all other things were fixed—and as Chief Frost alluded to, it's not enough just to have a moratorium—how would that fix things, when they're not included in that issue?

[Tim Gerberding]

Well, that's an excellent point, and I think that has to be addressed.

I sent you a copy of that seven-year agreement, and I know that at one point someone mentioned that it needed to be translated into French. I hope that has been done.

There are sections in that agreement that speak specifically to the rebuilding plan. There are factors that have to be addressed. Climate change is one of them. Resource development is another. Again, that is on both sides of the border. There's also marine interception, the pollock fishery and hatcheries. Hatcheries are specifically mentioned.

There is no blueprint for how this is going to happen, but at the adviser level, where Pauline and I sit, I think we would very much like governments to collaborate. We would like to begin to approach all governments, including those of Canada and the United States, and raise the issue to see if we can begin to at least moderate the number of fish that are being poured into the north Pacific, because it's not an infinite system and the competition is definitely affecting the wild strains.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, I'd like to move a motion that we now resume debate on the elver fishery motion that I moved at the last meeting, on April 18, obviously in addition to the debate on the amendment of MP Kelloway.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

All right. We have a motion by Mr. Perkins. It's on resuming debate.

I'll ask the clerk to do a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

I'm going to say thank you to our witnesses for today. Thank you to Chief Frost and Mr. Gerberding for staying for a full two hours and to Ms. Bergeron for joining us in the last hour. We'll let you sign off now while we go into debate.

If there's anything you think you didn't get to say or put forward, you can certainly send an email to the clerk. We'll make sure that's included in your testimony.

[Chief Pauline Frost]

Thank you.

[Tim Gerberding]

Thank you.

[Myriam Bergeron]

Thank you.