Fisheries Committee on May 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. You left 30 seconds on the clock.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens.

I understand that Ms. Barron is having some technical troubles in connecting, and she has asked me to give you her six minutes, so you have 12 minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you. I'm lucky.

Good afternoon, Ms. Lapointe. Thank you for being here. We've been looking forward to your visit for a few sessions. I'm sure you have a lot to teach us about the redfish fishery.

I believe you worked at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans until 2021. What year did you start working there?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I think it was in 1999.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What was your job at the department?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I started out fairly young as an agent and worked mainly on international fisheries management issues. Then I progressed in my career and became assistant deputy minister responsible for fisheries and ports management.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I imagine you touched on a bit of everything, because, when you become a deputy minister, you're pretty much in—

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I was assistant deputy minister.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, you were assistant deputy minister. I imagine you handled quite a few files.

Obviously, we've heard a lot of concerns about the return of offshore boats, that is, boats 100 feet and over, in the redfish fishery. Indeed, there have been analyses and statements, based on the experiences of the last 30 years, to the effect that the offshore fishing technique had contributed enormously to the disappearance of or serious decline in the population of certain species, including redfish.

You say that the length of your association members' boats varies between 61 and 245 feet. What is the proportion of boats 100 feet and over in your association?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

We have between four and six. I would say there are only two that are active in Newfoundland and one that is active in Nova Scotia.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Are you talking about boats 100 feet and over?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

Yes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Is bycatch important in the redfish fishery that you do? Are there any other species that are caught in the nets?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

There is bycatch. If I understand correctly, when the minister makes her decision, there will be new management measures for the redfish fishery to minimize bycatch. One of the risks of a higher total allowable catch is that bycatch may increase.

There are two types of redfish. There's a redfish that's not as healthy and can be caught as a bycatch. There are also other groundfish species that can be caught, but there are maximum percentages that are going to be put in place for all participants in this fishery so that we don't have high levels of bycatch.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In the context where the selling price per pound of redfish is not very high, is there also interest in bycatch?

If you catch some nice halibut in your net full of undersized redfish, it becomes interesting for everyone's wallet. Are such catches of particular interest?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I don't think so. The department has control systems in place to make sure that this kind of activity doesn't happen. There will always be participants who will try to cheat a little, but I don't think it's a bigger problem in the redfish fishery than in other fisheries.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So, 58% of the 25,000 tonnes are allocated to the offshore sector and the rest of the catch is shared by indigenous people, non-indigenous people and shrimpers in Quebec. The rest of the catch is not economically significant enough for shrimpers to commit to modifying their boats and to an inshore fishery with such a small market share. Are you in a position to say, as a representative of this sector, whether it is lucrative for shrimpers to enter the redfish fishery with such a modest quota?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I'll say two things. In terms of quotas, we would be happy with an authorized catch rate of 25,000 tonnes, but we understand that, for other participants, this fishery may not be as profitable and interesting if that rate is not higher. Our position is therefore very flexible in this respect.

However, I think the biggest challenge for shrimpers will be the markets. That's why we'd like to have a collaborative approach with all participants in this fishery to make sure we get the maximum value out of this fishery while we have access to it and develop markets together. We've already done a lot of work on the ground to start developing these markets.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

This is interesting. I hope people hear us on that.

However, with offshore fishing techniques having contributed to altering the resource, and the resource having recovered when we stopped fishing in this way, a major fear has taken hold in the world of Quebec fishers and shrimpers.

We can see how complex the situation is for biodiversity, which is in free fall, particularly for shrimp, of which redfish is the main predator. For at least five years, shrimpers have been sounding the alarm that shrimp biomass is declining, and that redfish must be fished at all costs. They've been calling for this fishery for several years, probably even when you were in office, but it's only now that we're announcing the opening of this fishery and returning the majority of the market to the offshore sector.

Although redfish quotas are not at their historic 78% level, and some work has already been done to reduce them, are they still a priority, in your opinion?

What do you think about respecting the historical quotas, given the critical situation of biodiversity? Could it be that, 30 years on, they're no longer as relevant and need to be revisited? Do you think we should continue to operate exactly as before?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

You've raised a lot of points.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Yes, I rambled for a while.

[Sylvie Lapointe]

I have a few comments on what you just said.

The deep-sea fleet fishing practices of 30 years ago no longer exist. They've evolved a lot. So I don't think it's reasonable to compare fishing in 2024 with fishing in 1980. It's completely different today. Our members are adopting sustainable fishing practices and have no interest in not doing so.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, there is a lot of groundfish fishing going on that is certified as sustainable by the Marine Stewardship Council.

As far as historical quotas are concerned, our sector continued to fish redfish in unit 1. This was a benchmark fishery. In recent years, experimental fishing has also been practised. Very few participants decided to take up this type of fishing. So I don't think it's entirely fair to say that there were no redfish opportunities before this year, because there were. We took advantage of those opportunities. In the other fleets, there were very few participants, and a lot of fish stayed in the water.

As I've said before, if the government has biodiversity and environmental change objectives to, for example, provide further fishing opportunities for shrimpers who have lost access to shrimp, we ask them to let us know. As an industry, we'll work together to find win-win solutions. It's better than having historical quota cuts imposed on us.

The government doesn't really understand the impact on our members' economic activities, and often doesn't understand the details of how fisheries work. We're willing to work with all fleets. As I said, it's important for us to work together so that we can get maximum value from this type of fishing.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I'm glad to hear that. However, what concerns me in this field is precisely the fact that there are…. You're concerned about the viability of your coastal villages. I can tell you that in Gaspésie, the boats are docked and nothing is happening. It's dramatic.

I don't know if there's a possible meeting point in this exercise, but I deeply hope so.

In your role at the department at the time, did you feel any pressure or lobbying from the offshore sector, which would have liked to take back its historical quota as soon as possible when the fisheries opened?

[Sylvie Lapointe]

The offshore sector has always wanted to protect its historical quotas, whether for redfish or other fisheries. This has always been a priority for the members of the Atlantic Groundfish Council.

I haven't had any discussions about redfish allocations, because when I was at the department, we were really focused on reopening the fishery based on scientific advice. When I was in office, the fish were even smaller, too small to open a commercial fishery.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. That was a quick 12 minutes.

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less. I'd ask him to keep in mind what I mentioned to him earlier, before the meeting started.

[Voices]

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