Fisheries Committee on Sept. 18th, 2024

[Sean Rogers]

The system that exists currently within the regulations in terms of granting pilotage certificates.... I think that's what we're talking about. With respect to the training and certification of bridge crew in order to receive a pilotage certificate, the system is intended to ensure the same level of safety as a licensed marine pilot—that is, someone who's a full-time pilot. The level of experience required in sea time as a captain or as a member of the bridge crew, the number of transits, the familiarity with the current conditions—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Is language still a barrier?

[Sean Rogers]

It depends on the situation.

The number of trips required to qualify for a pilotage certificate will depend on the particular origin and destination pairing, in accordance with the level of risk to navigational safety.

Those transits are set in order to ensure that the experience level a licensed pilot has is equivalent to the bridge crew operating that vessel. It's really based on the principle that someone who conducts the same transit over many years has the same level of knowledge and experience as a marine pilot, with respect to the licensed pilot. In some sense, the experience and the knowledge of the bridge crew are equal to that of a licensed marine pilot; therefore, they can apply for a certificate.

However, the certificate only applies to a very specific set of origin and destination pairings. They don't become a licensed pilot eligible to navigate anywhere in the St. Lawrence. A pilotage certificate is only valid for a certain port of origin and a certain destination.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As we know, it is much less expensive for us to prevent these vessels from being abandoned in the first place. Right now we have systems in place where people are unsure how to properly dispose of their vessel. They're unsure what to do once their vessel has reached the life that a vessel goes through. We need to have a bigger strategy in place, but one thing in particular I want to ask about is the identification of vessel owners.

I've heard from a constituent recently who was frustrated. He kept going in circles. He was trying to register his vessel. He had been working on this for months and could not get a clear answer as to how to register his vessel.

I'm wondering if somebody could share with me the challenges around registering vessels and how that is an important piece of this discussion on how to clean up these vessels and prevent them from sinking in the first place.

[Sean Rogers]

I work in the marine safety and security program at Transport Canada. We regularly receive emails to the minister and to others from individuals who are experiencing trouble with the online registration system. You can also use mail as well. I'm happy to follow up with the member after this meeting to take down the particulars of the individual and provide them with the information that will help them get their pleasure craft registered.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I have provided that information to him, just to let you know, and I'd be happy to talk about it later.

The bigger issue here is not just around the registration of the vessel but being able to access the information around the registration of the vessel. I'm being told that when a vessel is abandoned, in order to clean it up, the vessel owner needs to be identified, and there are huge delays—that the system's outdated—in being able to identify the owner in a timely manner, which means that the vessel sits longer than it needs to, polluting into the surrounding marine ecosystem. I'm wondering if somebody could speak to the implications of an outdated registration system or, in fact, if that's accurate.

[Sean Rogers]

The marine safety program is responsible for the operation of the pleasure craft licensing database. One issue that we have seen is that, prior to 2010, a licence, which is really the permit like a vehicle permit you have for the car that you own, was granted on a lifetime basis. The onus was on the owner to report in to the database when the vessel ownership changed hands or if they were decommissioning the vessel and rendering it for disposal. That was not always the case. In 2010, we implemented a 10-year time period for the validity of that licensing with the hopes that over time we would see the existing lifetime licences slowly grandfathered or transitioning into a 10-year licence.

There's a total of about 2.7 million licences in the system, and there are still 1.5 million lifetime licences. Those licences go back as far as the 1960s and could involve individuals who have since passed on or whose vessels have since passed through two or three different owners. As a result, we are in the process of updating the regulations, of amending the regulations, to create a validity period of five years for pleasure craft licences, and an individual would have, I think it is, 30 days to report a change in ownership to the licensing database.

That is designed to create a stronger licensing regime to support the operation of wrecked, hazardous and abandoned vessels legislation by enabling the individuals in the navigation protection program or in the Canadian Coast Guard to more readily identify who the owner of a vessel is. To the example that's probably being brought up, if it's the case that the registration information in the licensing database is not up to date, then it can sometimes be next to impossible to track down the last owner of that vessel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Calkins for five minutes or less.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's great to be back at the fisheries committee. I certainly appreciate the opportunity to ask some questions.

Just so I'm clear, based on the presentation, Ms. Nghiem, you said—I want to make sure I have the information correctly in my mind—that $300 million has been used in the removal of derelict and abandoned vessels.

Do I have that correct?

[Kathy Nghiem]

[Inaudible—Editor] invested since 2016, and that money extends to 2027.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

It's been invested and spent. It's money that has been spent. Is that correct? It's not budgeted.

[Kathy Nghiem]

Some of it has been spent.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

How much has been spent, please?

[Kathy Nghiem]

I'd have to add up the columns. I need a minute to do that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

It hasn't all been spent.

[Kathy Nghiem]

No.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Until when does that program go?

[Kathy Nghiem]

There are some elements of it that are ongoing, and some that expire in 2027.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Okay. The number of vessels I have is 1,489 units in June and 1,358 in September 2024. That's a net of 131 fewer vessels. The claim is 791 vessels removed. If you've used the entire $300 million, which you say you haven't, that would work out to $380,000 per vessel. That seems exorbitant to me.

How much money have you collected from the owners in the user pay principle? How much has been reimbursed to the taxpayer?

[Kathy Nghiem]

To answer your question, I will turn to my colleague from Transport to talk about the vessels remediation fund.

[Colin Henein]

Sure.

The vessels remediation fund is a future source of long-term funding that would be owner-financed, one that will enable us to not be drawing on general taxpayer revenues to address the costs of remediation when we cannot find the owner, or when the owner is unwilling or unable to do that.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

That's fine. I understand the intention.

However, my question is very specific: How much money have we collected from the owners of derelict vessels? I'm looking for a number, if you have one. If you don't have one, that's fine.

[Kathy Nghiem]

We'd have to follow up in writing, Mr. Chair.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

I don't remember who said it specifically, but I heard somebody say that the number of vessels being added to the inventory is increasing at what I understood to be an almost exponential rate. Can that be confirmed? I think we're seeing more going in than ever before. Is that right? Maybe it was Ms. Barron asking the question.

Is that actually true?