Fisheries Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2024

[David Roberts]

Thank you very much for putting up with me for the last hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you. We'll stop for a couple of moments now while the clerk does a couple of sound checks with our next witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay, we're back for our second hour.

I want to welcome our witnesses. From the Georgia Strait Alliance, we have Mr. Jacob Banting, program coordinator for Clean Marine BC. Of course, we also have Benjamin Boulton, manager of the derelict vessel program from the Rugged Coast Research Society. Joining us in the second panel—we had hoped to get him on for the first one—we have Mr. John Roe, director of the Dead Boats Disposal Society.

Welcome to all three of you. You'll each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

We'll go to Mr. Roe first for five minutes or less, please.

[John Roe, Founding Director, Dead Boats Disposal Society]

Welcome to B.C., beautiful British Columbia.

My name is John Roe. I'm one of the founding members of the Veins of Life Watershed Society and the Dead Boats Disposal Society. We formed as an organization almost 30 years ago in the cleanup and the restoration of the Victoria Harbour and the Gorge Waterway here in Victoria.

Our partners have always been heavy industry. We work with a company called Ralmax Group of Companies. They are in partnership with the Songhees and Esquimalt first nations in a facility where they have the equipment, which we need and which we always dreamed about, for Salish Sea Industrial Services.

I have personally removed probably.... Let's back up a little bit here. I participated in the provincial and the federal programs where we removed over 253, but over my lifetime, we removed over 500 with our partners...well over 500 and hundreds of tonnes of garbage. Our forte is source control, so we try to stop stuff from going in. That includes boats, but it's also marine pollution and things like that. Beach cleanups, restoration...we've been involved in that.

We're active. We have been working with our cohorts on the ground. We have received funding from the federal government and the provincial government on this, for which we're grateful, but there need to be changes here to make it more efficient.

If I can have the time to talk about that, for me, it's pretty simple. We've been at this for a long time. Again, I listened to the last conversation, spouting off the number of 1,600 vessels. Well, it's double if not triple that. There's no indication of what's under the water. We deal with water in the tidal areas, with 60-foot up to 80-foot boats. We do surveys and drone work of the surface, air and underwater, and I'll tell you that there's a lot more there. Our organization works from Port Renfrew all the way to the top of the tip of Alaska.

We need a different plan; let's put it that way. We need to go in and survey these areas. We need to see what's in each one of these bays and inlets, and then we need to put it out to tender for removal. We have these programs—a fishnet program, a beach cleanup program and this program—and there's no integration of all this. The monies that we're spending are way beyond reason. The monies going out are just....

For instance, in 2017, before the federal government got involved with the derelict and abandoned boats program, we took out 14 boats from Cadboro Bay. I seized them under my own personal name before the Dead Boats Disposal Society was formed, and we took them off for $14,700. Today, the cost of those boats is about $14,700 each. Everybody got paid except for me. I'm just a volunteer in all this.

We need to take a hard look at what we're doing. We need to come up with a plan here, and we need to implement it. There are just so many issues to talk about. You touched on them before. Disposal—there is no real place to dispose of it in B.C. We have a lot of land transfer stations. They don't want it in their dumps, so we end up bringing it back to the capital regional districts with our partners. Then we have to go through a solid process of testing, which is added to the cost, and I understand that. However, what is showing up are heavy metals—mercury, zinc, copper, asbestos and all that—which we knew were present before, but the data helps to prove what we're saying, which is that you have to get them out of the ocean in the first place.

I'm open to questions. We've been at it, like I say, for 30 years, and we work everywhere. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Banting for five minutes or less.

[Jacob Banting, Program Coordinator, Clean Marine BC, Georgia Strait Alliance]

Thank you for having me.

I am Jacob Banting. I'm with the Georgia Strait Alliance where I'm the program coordinator for Clean Marine BC.

I'll give you a little background. For nearly 35 years, Georgia Strait Alliance has stood as a leading advocate for environmental protection in the Salish Sea region. As Clean Marine BC's coordinator, I specialize in boater outreach, mostly recreational boaters. We connect with thousands of boaters per year, and we also run an eco-certification program for boatyards, marinas, yacht clubs—any boating facility on the coast here. We provide training and education, distribute resources, try to mobilize around the issues that are impacting communities, listen to folks who are reaching out to us, and ensure that our work is relevant and impactful for the health of the region.

I come from a background of managing a harbour authority where I'm from on the traditional territories of the Tla'amin people in qathet on the beautiful upper Sunshine Coast in B.C. In the harbour I was managing, I got to see, first-hand, vessel abandonment. It wasn't too often, but sometimes it was sinking due to negligence or accidental, which does happen.

However, you also see community involvement, as well as the delays and restrictions caused by the system in place. There is also the juggling of jurisdiction on vessels when there is such a gap, when a vessel could be removed and kept afloat as opposed to letting it sit for six months and then having its hull crack. The next thing you know it is chopped up and ends up in a landfill. One thing we've heard from calling around to the different groups that are actually removing these vessels is just the different insights regarding jurisdictions. A lot of municipalities don't want to take these vessels. There are so many ways to address this issue.

In B.C. alone, protecting marine biodiversity.... Where I was from, the harbour authority that I was managing was right next to a shellfish bed, so food security is on the table and safeguarding human health, knowing that shellfish are absorbing all these toxins. One day it's red tide and pretty soon we'll be testing for plastics in bivalves. That chain of toxicity is making its way up the food chain to larger fish and to marine mammals and then up to whales and seabirds. The list goes on with the detrimental effects to ecosystems and communities, and the economic impacts that can be had. The risks associated with food contamination affect us all, but it's central to indigenous food sovereignty, marine governance and even reconciliation.

Having seen it first-hand, from reporting it and then, as I mentioned, the juggling around, there is a lack of transparency and statistics. I feel like there's a lot of “we've taken out x number of vessels” from, say, Transport Canada, but there are not enough numbers on.... In our program, I always look for continual improvement with facilities and boaters, but I think part of that is seeing what's not working, giving those numbers out and then working with the groups that are actually doing the removals, as well as the local first nations, to try to find the solutions.

If we look at different states, we see that Washington state is a great example for registration. Seeing what's not working is a huge part in improving, and I don't know if enough of that is being done right now.

We're supporting Bill C-344 through our supporters, who have sent out nearly 1,600 signatures and letters to local MPs. We're reinforcing more work, and I feel like the list could go on. I think that, for me, prevention is....

I think the number that's been going out is that, for every vessel in B.C., five are added, so preventing more through better registration, licensing.... More boats are ending up in the water and then being turned away, so there is something wrong with our system there. Advocating for it, getting community support, first nations'...and more input are definitely vital to that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Boulton for five minutes or less, please.

[Benjamin Boulton, Manager, Derelict Vessel Program, Rugged Coast Research Society]

Good afternoon.

Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to appear as a witness on the study of derelict and abandoned boats.

My name is Ben Boulton. I am the derelict vessel program manager with the Rugged Coast Research Society, located on Vancouver Island. Today I'm calling in from Yuułuʔiłʔatḥ territory in Ucluelet, B.C.

Rugged Coast has been around since 2017, focusing on “boots on the ground” action in anthropogenic stressors removal, be they shoreline cleanups or derelict vessels and aquaculture sites. That's been our main focus. As of last year, my main focus has been removing derelict vessels from very remote, hard-to-reach nooks and crannies off Vancouver Island.

Our program runs in partnership with our host nations' governments. We value meaningful connection with our indigenous partners in our projects. That's been at the forefront of our operation over the last few years. Over the last year, we've removed 52 vessels between Ka:’yu:’k’t’h’ and Che:k’tles7et’h’ traditional territory and Hesquiaht territory. We are slated to remove another 20 vessels before the year is out. With the week I've had, it seems that number may be higher. I've been dealing with small craft harbours and the Coast Guard non-stop this week over vessels sinking up and down the west coast. We're likely to see that number increase over the next few weeks.

Unfortunately, this last year has only been a starting point for our operations. Working with communities up and down the coast, we identified an initial 200 vessels that are not in the registry. As Mr. Roe mentioned, the number 1,046—or wherever that number stands at this point—is grossly underestimated. A good example I like to bring forward is our project in Ka:’yu:’k’t’h’ and Che:k’tles7et’h’ territory last year. When we went in, we were looking at removing 12 vessels. We ended up removing 35 vessels. That gives you a bit of context on what is known versus what is actually out there. There are many more vessels pending further subtidal analysis and survey.

Some of the challenges we've been experiencing over the last few years include the criteria and the costs required to dispose of a vessel in a remote community. These are extremely high. When you look at a remote community on the west coast of Vancouver Island, or anywhere up the central and north coast, having a vessel is a way of life. It's a livelihood. It's a necessity. When your boat becomes unusable at the end of its life, what are you going to do with it? Typically, it's going to cost a few thousand dollars to remove it. If you are in an economically challenged area, with a lack of work or seasonal work, a couple of thousand dollars to dispose of a vessel is huge. What are you left to do?

Another piece is that we have an aging population in this country. Sickness and death are factors in a lot of the vessels we've been looking at. Vessel owners pass away or leave communities to seek medical aid. Then their vessels sink and become abandoned. Something that should be looked at federally, as well as provincially, is offering disposal programs for remote communities.

Right now, disposal and funding initiatives.... While there is funding, there are limitations. We have noticed that these funds are diminishing, as I am sure a lot of other organizations have—ones working under the abandoned boats program, the small craft harbours program, the “Clean Coast, Clean Waters” program and other derelict vessel initiatives. They come with a lot of different requirements. Small groups are not necessarily able to access these funds.

The permitting process around removing derelict vessels is cumbersome. If we do not have a vessel owner present, we have to go through the section 38 authorization process, which includes a 30-day notice period. Often—especially in the summertime, when there are people out of the office—it can take up to two months to get these section 38s in-hand so we can assess and remove a vessel. Two months is a long time, especially when we're getting into the fall season. Right now, we have five-metre seas on the west coast. We're going to be seeing a lot more vessels going down and sinking in the next few months here.

Currently, end-of-life disposal options are limited. We don't end up recycling a lot from the vessels we remove. Sure, we get the metals, batteries, fluids and fuels. However, there isn't a stream that exists right now for meaningful fibreglass recycling. This is something that R and D funding should focus on, in our opinion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Boulton. You have gone over your time. Hopefully, anything you didn't get to say will come out in the lines of questioning.

We'll now go to Mr. Bragdon for five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses today for appearing and taking the time to be here, as well as for the valuable work that you provide Canadians. I have a few questions I'll ask each of you panellists to start this off.

In your opinion, has the Wrecked, Abandoned or Hazardous Vessels Act achieved its stated purpose? If so, or if not, please explain why.

Try to keep the answer fairly brief. I know that's a wide-open question, but I have a couple of other questions I want to follow up with. We'll start with the guy with his finger up.

It's John Roe.

[John Roe]

I have had the privilege of seizing many vessels. I have become the resident expert in this province on seizures and disposals and things like that.

The system has gotten better. Is it working? Not in the slightest. As Mr. Boulton mentioned, it can take up to two months. At one time, it would take up to a year or so.

As a non-profit, we were very reluctant to go through the process of seizure ourselves because the possibility of being sued, even with a salvage licence, is very real. It takes just one lawsuit. It's the suit that will get you. It's not the winning or the losing of the suit.

Is the system working the way it sits? No, it's not.

Again, we've had two fines on the west coast. With one person, personally, before this program started and the law changed, I took out nine of his boats. He got fined for another boat left in Cadboro Bay. Now he's in the process of leaving three more in just around the corner from Cadboro Bay. He's an abuser. He's one of many who take our oceans for granted.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

I think what we're finding is a lot of frustration building around this. We're hearing from testimony that there's cumbersome regulation around it, but we're also seeing the lack of a clear plan. We know what the overall objective is, but we're being strangled in the process.

What restrictions do you wish could be removed the most quickly? What are the biggest hurdles that need to be removed the most quickly to help you get to what you need to do and to implement that?

Mr. Roe, I'll start with you again.

[John Roe]

It's the collection of the data. The information the federal government is providing now is from a survey done in 2014 and published in 2016. I got it through an FOI request, but it wasn't actually open to the public until almost 2020. I went out in 2017 and looked for all those 1,700 boats. I found maybe 400 of them. The rest of them had either gone or disappeared. In the meantime, I found a lot more. One of the problems with the thing is a proper inventory.

This is where we non-profits can specialize. It's not so much in the disposal. I would like to leave that to heavy industry in a bidding process to break it up more equally and bring the costs down, but what we can do as a non-profit is go in and survey these bays and look for everything. We can look at stormwater. We can look at....

We need to rebuild our fisheries here in B.C. A lot of it stems from the estuaries, where the damage is. We have old, abandoned docks. We have lots of abandoned boats. Take a look from the tidal area all the way to 60-feet deep. Let's do a survey there and present it back to the federal government. The federal government will go and present it and put it out to tender. Pick a bay or an inlet or anything else—pick five of them.

The organization I work with is a big organization when it gets on the ground. It costs us about $20,000 a day to put our barges and cranes in the water. That's expensive, but it's not when you compare it to how much we can do in a day. We went out to a job site in Burgoyne Bay in the first application, and we took out 17 boats in four days. We lost 10 days due to bad weather because it was in the wrong time of year.

The most important things are what's out there and how do we train the public to identify what is an abandoned boat and what's not an abandoned boat. What you might think is an abandoned boat and what is an abandoned boat...after working through this process, a lot of the time, it's not. It's getting that information and getting it correct, and then governments step in and ask how much it's going to cost to do this. It's going to do it in July and August. Let the big companies bid on it.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Roe.

I think my time's expired. I just wanted to thank you for that. It was a very thorough answer, and I appreciate your passion. I think we got a lot out of what you said.

I apologize to the other witnesses. I didn't get to my questions for you, but that's all good.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll go to Mr. Hardie now for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Roe, you mentioned lawsuits. What was the nature of them? Who was suing whom and why?

[John Roe]

For a non-profit or anybody who seizes a boat, there's a whole procedure. If I want to grab a boat as salvage without going through section 38, I have to hold it for 30 days. I have to document everything I've done to it. There are international salvage laws. You're never going to change that.

The danger of that is that if I seize a boat as a non-profit and then go through my 30 days and I still haven't identified it—I have to put it in the paper and I have to make every notice that I can—I'm still liable for that boat. Even when I dispose of it, I'm still technically liable by law. The danger is there.

There was an example in Salt Spring Island about seven or eight years ago when the harbour authority called me up and asked for my advice. A boat had sunk at their facility. I said, “This is what you have to do.” Well, they didn't do it, and they got sued. They were found liable for almost $10,000 for a boat that was completely garbage.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Who sued them?

[John Roe]

It was the owner of the boat.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

So the owner finally came forward and said, “Hey, that's my boat.”

[John Roe]

Yes. I had been trying to tell them for months. They had the paperwork and they had documented everything else, but they didn't do the proper procedures for the salvage routine. That's just the salvage; that's not section 38, which is handled by Transport Canada and is a whole different matter.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We would appreciate something in writing, off-line, with some suggestions on how we can clean that up. That would be good.

[John Roe]

I've written something.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Boulton, the description of your activities was quite impressive.

We've done other studies on the west coast, particularly where it involved cleaning up beaches. I know Ms. Barron launched a study into containers that were lost overboard and the stuff coming up on shore. It seems that a feature of the west coast is quite a number of small, independent volunteer organizations without a lot of coordination. I'm concerned that we're missing economies of scale. We're missing something with enough gravitas and capabilities to have the infrastructure available to do this work efficiently.

Has there been any initiative you're aware of to try to pull all of these small volunteer groups together into something bigger and more effective?

[Benjamin Boulton]

This seems reminiscent of the Zim Kingston committee meetings, describing the small volunteer organizations.

I wouldn't qualify Rugged Coast as a small volunteer organization. We've been conducting large-scale anthropogenic stressor removals up and down the coast. I don't want to dwell on this point too much, but maybe that's something we can chat about at a later date.

A couple of the organizations are actually conducting a significant portion of the removals up and down the coast. As for lumping these organizations into one, a group that goes out and does volunteer beach cleanups is very different from an organization such as ours, which conducts industrial-scale beach cleanups as well as vessel salvage and cleanup and aquaculture site removal.