Evidence of meeting #122 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was stock.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sylvie Lapointe  President, Atlantic Groundfish Council
Alberto Wareham  President and Chief Executive Officer, Icewater Seafoods Inc.
Carey Bonnell  Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International
Lyne Morissette  Doctor of Marine Ecology, Fisheries and Marine Mammal Specialist, M-Expertise Marine Inc., As an Individual
David Vardy  Economist, As an Individual

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Sure. When I say historical public policy, the FFAW have talked about this 40-year commitment that exists. We just went through a judicial process that some of you are familiar with. Under cross-examination, a FFAW employee, Courtney Glode, could not point to the exclusivity clause in the 1979 Corner Brook conference, the 1982 Kirby task force report or the 2004 policy framework. There's no reference to exclusivity, but there is to priority. We all acknowledge that, and we support priority.

The first appearance really turned up in 2015 in terms of the Liberal Party platform commitment or the letter, I should say, from Anna Gainey with the Liberal Party of Canada in 2015, talking about reaffirming a past commitment. Well, there was no past commitment. It didn't exist.

It did show up in 2021. Minister Jordan did indicate it in 2021 in the integrated fisheries management plan. Upon conversation with her on the topic, it was simply put in there to live up to a past political commitment and wasn't really informed by past public policy. The trail of this goes back to 2015 and a letter that really wasn't accurate with respect to past historical public policy. That's the context, I guess, around the historical component of this. There is no 40-year history around this.

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

You referenced the priority being given as something that was agreed upon. Do you feel that the priority was given in the way that the commitment was laid out to ensure indigenous people...?

11:35 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

We have two things on that. One is that our position continues to be that, as the stock grows and rebuilds, we would work back towards the one-third commitment to the offshore sector. However, at a lower level, where we are, we're comfortable with coming in at a lower level and working our way up over time, consistent with past public policy and consistent with a lot of the points we've covered on the importance of a balanced fishery.

Yes, we have certainly been supportive of indigenous reconciliation and the role of indigenous groups in Labrador, in particular in a reopened northern cod fishery.

Lisa Marie Barron NDP Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you.

I will continue through the chair with you, Mr. Bonnell.

Another thing you spoke about was the fact that you thought there was more stock than was being seen. One thing that I found interesting was that Dr. Rose talked about the fact that the science was changed, that the science was being rewritten. I also heard from others that the amount of stock has not increased. It was just our way of determining the science, and it moved the stock into the cautious zone as a result.

You also referenced, in the question from my colleague Madame Desbiens, the fact that it didn't sound like there was any anticipation that this fishery would be resuming based on what you were seeing. Perhaps that's just me reading into what you were saying.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the fact that the stocks haven't changed; the science did. What do we do with that to make sure we manage this stock in a cautious way to make sure it's there for generations to come?

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

We've been of the view that the limit reference point on northern cod stock has been too high for a long time, particularly with the changing environments since pre-moratorium days and compared to limit reference points for stocks in other fisheries. We've held that position for a long time.

The October assessment that took place was done completely independently of us. It was a science-based process. I didn't participate in that process. We had some people within the Atlantic Groundfish Council who participated in the process, but based on the new information that was presented, the assessment model changed.

I will continue to point to the fact that, in this particular fishery today, we have an exploitation rate of 5%. If you talk to prominent fishery scientists—we deal with people like Dr. Ray Hilborn—they talk about total fishing removals, and if you talk about modern fisheries management globally, it's about managing removals. You would be hard pressed to find anybody to say that a 5% exploitation rate on cod is overly aggressive compared to Iceland at well over 20%. Norway is probably 30%-plus right now. Looking at our pre-moratorium record, which wasn't a pretty picture, it was over 50% in the years leading up to the moratorium.

I'll come back to that key point that we are taking a conservation approach with respect to this stock.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We will now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think I want to continue somewhat along the lines of where Ms. Barron was going here with the exploitation rates and so on.

You indicated, Mr. Bonnell, I believe, and Mr. Wareham, that there were indications that the stocks were returning.

Mr. Wareham, you indicated $14 million in plant upgrades in anticipation, yet until there was a change in the modelling—a change in modelling, not a change in the number of fish—there would be no great growth in the season. It was still to be not a sentinel fishery, but not a commercial fishery.

Can you connect those dots for me, the investment that was being made and the belief that the cod stocks were improving, yet the department had no indication of that until they changed the modelling?

11:40 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Icewater Seafoods Inc.

Alberto Wareham

We didn't know, as was said. We found out retrospectively from DFO science that the stock was in the cautious zone since 2016, which we didn't know until March 2024. When we made the investment, the stock was already in the cautious zone, which we didn't know about.

We are all, I think, mostly aware.... We've talked about climate change and ecosystem changes. When the science reference point, I guess we'll say, was the early eighties, putting in data that was readily available back to 1954 on three key components gave a better understanding of the stock, which then changed the limit reference point and the outlook of the stock. Although we didn't know when it would happen, we all expected that there would be a return to a commercial cod fishery.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Bonnell, I'll go back to you.

At this committee, we often hear from organizations that are competing for the last little bit of a share of a stock, a fishery or a harvest. Why are we not hearing more about the recovery of stocks so that there is adequate harvest for everyone to be commercially viable and to be sustainable for first nations' food, social and ceremonial? Why are we not seeing that? Why didn't we see that with the cod stock? What was holding back the recovery of the stock?

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Are you referring to pre-moratorium or currently, or on northern cod specifically? I'm just trying to understand.

11:40 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

I'm referring to post-moratorium. Why did it take, I believe, 32 years for this stock to begin to recover?

11:40 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Well, I think, historically, a significant amount of damage was done to the stock, obviously, with the significant overfishing, as I said—foreign, domestic, inshore and offshore. The fishery was not managed well before the moratorium period. It went down to a very low level. Environmental conditions at the time did not help either, so it was a combination of factors.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

What has happened since? Why didn't it recover?

You talk about how Iceland harvests 100,000 tonnes annually and sustainably, it seems. What is different with Iceland's management versus Canada's management?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Iceland's stock didn't go to a collapsed level—to my recollection, at least—to the status that our stock went. We went to a collapsed level, and it's taken time to get back.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

What is different about the management? You're in the business big time. What's the difference?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

In management today, there's really no difference between us and Iceland. We have similar management measures in place—some of the things I took you through a short while ago.

Historically, we had poor management measures before the moratorium. I don't think anybody would dispute that, and there have been a lot of books written on that particular topic.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Was it just the fishery that was managed poorly, or was it the entire ecosystem process with predation and natural mortality?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Pre-moratorium, there really wasn't much of a focus on the ecosystem-based model.

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

No, I'm talking post-moratorium, in the last 30 years.

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

With regard to today, I think.... Listen, we all monitor ecosystem indicators. We have all kinds of technology in our boats to monitor things. We're in a changing environment. I think the best thing we can do to manage fisheries today is to have good, robust stock assessments to ensure that we have annual surveys that are giving us a good indication of the state of the stock. We need to look at ecosystem indicators as part of that, of course.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Are you referring to just the cod stocks or also to prey stocks?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

More broadly, yes. Just in general, I think, absolutely.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Is that a difference between Canada and Iceland?

11:45 a.m.

Vice-President, Sustainability and Engagement, Ocean Choice International

Carey Bonnell

Where we are today.... I think we've come off of a couple of tough years on the multispecies surveys out our way, but we seem to be back on track right now. As long as we have good, robust surveys happening on an annual basis with good analytical capacity to interpret that data, I think we can stand up with any country in terms of our standards.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.