Fisheries Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[David Vardy]

I think the knowledge we have for management has improved over the years. Regarding the question of conflict of interest, there are ways to resolve that. The people who are fishing the resource, whether indigenous or not indigenous, do need to be involved. If there was a decision-making board, as there is in the case of the offshore petroleum board, the people on the board would really need to be those without a vested interest. They would need to be involved in the decision-making process, but not necessarily as final decision-makers because of that conflict of interest situation.

The indigenous fishery is a very important fishery to people. There are lots of very complex issues there. There needs to be a public forum whereby the debate can be tabled and discussed and we can get an understanding of what the best solution is and find a consensus.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The other thing that this committee has studied on both coasts, which hasn't been spoken about here so far, is the whole issue of pinnipeds and predation. The explosion in the populations, on both the west coast and the east coast, must have a significant impact on the sustainability of stocks, with or without any kind of a fishery from humans.

Are there any thoughts on brave measures that might have to be taken and should be taken to deal with pinniped predation?

[David Vardy]

Seal predation continues to be a serious issue, and it has always been. However, it's because of the escalating seal population—grey seals and harp seals in particular, but not limited to those—that the balance of nature has been disrupted, and there needs to be something done. There recently was a major study done on the impact of the seal fishery and on the scientific measurement of that impact, just within the last 18 months or so, with very good recommendations for dealing with the seal issue through developing the sealing industry.

I think that's the kind of approach we need to take, to try to be more aggressive in explaining how we have a sealing industry, which is very environmentally sound and very humanely conducted. We have to do more from a public policy standpoint not only to promote the seal fishery economically but also to explain to the public that it is humane.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. What luck!

Good afternoon, Ms. Morissette. It's good to see you. Thank you for your valuable comments and suggestions.

I'll dig a bit deeper into your remarks. Let's try to get to the bottom of things.

The committee has carried out studies on traceability, seals, mackerel and herring. We're in the process of studying redfish as well. We have a number of concerns. One common denominator always stands out. It's the lack of consideration for the communities.

I heard you talk about co‑management and inclusive management as the key to resilience.

How do you propose that the committee address this common denominator, which, by all accounts, provides the solution to the problem? How do you propose that the government improve the situation and bring the communities, non‑indigenous people and indigenous people back into the decision‑making process and the co‑management of our fisheries?

[Dr. Lyne Morissette]

Maybe that isn't the whole issue. However, the government is currently missing out on a great opportunity to carry out more environmental mediation. I don't have the data for Canada. In Quebec, of all the accredited mediators, only six practice environmental mediation. None of these six people work on marine issues.

In some models, talking and consulting together works well. Take the example of the right whale issue, which I've worked on a great deal. Two departments are responsible for this issue. Transport Canada deals with shipping, a major cause of whale mortality. Fisheries and Oceans Canada deals with fisheries, another cause of whale mortality.

Transport Canada has a system for collaborating with the industry that works well. It participates in meetings, takes into account the opinions expressed and engages in integrative management. For the same issues, Fisheries and Oceans Canada doesn't have this system.

There's a great opportunity for environmental mediation. It doesn't happen much in Canada, but it works well. It certainly isn't done much at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. That's a shame, because this recipe has worked all over the world. It's a scientifically sound and well‑documented approach that delivers results.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you. That's very informative.

We should focus more on this. I think that, unfortunately, Fisheries and Oceans Canada is sometimes used for political purposes. We heard Mr. Vardy say that we should separate politics from fisheries management. How nice! I took note of this.

Do you have an opinion on the lack of environmental mediation at Fisheries and Oceans Canada? Can you tell us that, if environmental mediators were more involved in the department's decision‑making process, we could avoid repeating past mistakes?

Unfortunately, the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change turned down our invitation to appear before the committee. I wanted to invite him to speak about redfish. Unfortunately, he repeatedly declined.

Do you think that we should call him in to discuss this?

[Dr. Lyne Morissette]

I think that a number of departments must work together for mediation to take place.

It works. It must be done. The issues that we're dealing with right now involve the history of cod and cod management. Conflicts are arising with fishers over right whales. Marine protected areas must be set up. Usage conflicts will increase in the coming years. We absolutely must learn to work together to become more effective. It's a race against time when it comes to climate change and the erosion of biodiversity.

Our current measures aren't effective. They could be. They must be, because things won't get any better.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I hear you loud and clear. We'll include this in our recommendations. I think that the committee heard you loud and clear, Ms. Morissette.

I may still have one minute.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have one minute and 20 seconds.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Good.

We've been talking about redfish lately, and the lack of consultation with people on the ground. I was elected five years ago today, and for five years, I've been hearing about the lack of consideration for people on the ground. For five years, redfish fishers have been saying that we should reopen the goldfish fishery, because goldfish are eating shrimp.

We now realize that there may be an issue with the northern cod, which lacks prey to feed on. Fishing and seals aren't the only things to consider.

Could environmental mediation shed significant light on ecological balance?

[Dr. Lyne Morissette]

It could provide different knowledge and perspectives.

I don't think that we have the full story yet. An ecosystem is extremely complicated. I spent my master's and doctorate studies trying to understand why the cod stock was so low and where seals fit into the story. It isn't straightforward. We need to look at more than one issue.

When we want to act too quickly, think linearly and work in isolation, we lose sight of the big picture. We probably miss out on the best possible solutions. It's extremely important to work together. Most of our knowledge doesn't come from a scientific notebook. Most of our knowledge comes from the people who have both feet on the boat and who see the sea and the changes in the ecosystem every day. They also bear the brunt of the impact.

Obviously, we must listen to them.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to both of the witnesses for being here today. My question is for Mr. Vardy.

First of all, I'm pleased that you're here today to be able to bring us your wealth of experience and knowledge. I found your point interesting around the priority given to year-round jobs over conservation. Can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

[David Vardy]

That's the key in terms of management, trying to find a way to remove the politics from the management of the fishery. The volatility, the ups and downs, and the instability of the fishing industry is largely attributable to the fact that there have been too many decisions taken without enough knowledge, and without enough weight assigned to science and conservation. Various environmental factors are very important as well.

There's not just one indicator of success, like the biomass. There are issues with recruitment and water temperature. There are seals and a whole host of factors. Inherently, there's a lot of need for good science, but also good input from harvesters and the people who are out on the water. Some kind of a joint management process would be extremely beneficial in terms of not only separating out the politics but making the politics and the science more transparent.

One of the big problems we have right now is that there's ministerial discretion. Often, it's not clear what the factors are that influence a minister's decisions. We need to have more transparency, more public input and more.... This is an industry where the regulator, quite often, is captured by the industry. The term “regulatory capture”, I think, applies to many industries, not least in the case of the fishing industry. We need something to keep the industry in its place—to keep everybody in their places.

The public should be in its place as well. I think the public needs a seat at the table. My biggest concern right now is the fact that civic society is excluded from much of this process.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Vardy. You answered many of my other questions all in that one question. That was good.

One thing that you were talking about was around the joint management fisheries board, around the importance of independent science. When my colleague, Mr. Small, was asking the question about whether you felt that the LRP was part of a political plan, I was reflecting on that, because we have taken extensive time as a committee to study science and the impacts of science not being independent on management decisions. It was interesting to me to think that we wouldn't be posing questions like that if we had a sound management plan that included robust, independent science.

To get to my main question, the other witness who was here today, Mr. Bonnell, had mentioned that Iceland and Norway have robust fisheries management practices, and he felt that Canada had comparable management plans. Now, I hope I'm not poorly articulating what it was that he said, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that. Does Canada, in your opinion, have that same independent science, the robust, science-based management plans that we require?

[David Vardy]

If you were to look at international best practices, you'd see, I think, that we probably don't. I'm inclined to think we don't. I think that Iceland and Norway probably have a better process. However, when it comes to this—you mentioned the limit reference point, as to what extent that was shaped out of a political process or a scientific one—again, I come back to the question of transparency, because there was a question about whether this new DFO fisheries model has been verified and validated. I've asked scientists and other people to tell me if this went through the proper process.

What I was told was that DFO science invited people, and specific people were asked to come. With some of them, they shared the data; in other cases they didn't. Most of the people attending the forum were by invitation. It wasn't open. Was this an open process that led from the old LRP to the new one? I would think it's not. It was not really as transparent as it should have been, because I think there's such a quantum change.

When I was deputy minister of fisheries, essentially, we needed to have one million tonnes of spawning biomass in the water before we could have a productive fishery. Now we're down somewhere between 300,000 tonnes and 400,000 tonnes. On the quantum change, the reduction in the LRP, the goalpost, changed to a large extent here, much more than the stock. Some can argue that the stock has increased, and some of the previous witnesses spoke about that—that the 2024 surveys are very encouraging. However, one swallow doesn't make a spring. It takes more than one survey before you can reach definitive conclusions about the health of a stock.

My fear is that the limit reference point was changed without proper consultation, without the kind of open civic engagement that's needed to have credibility for science. My sense is that, when you come back to the Canadian question of where Canada stands, I'm not so sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, both of you, for being available today. I want to start questions with Ms. Morissette, if I could.

Ms. Morissette, you're a marine mammal specialist. Is that correct?

[Dr. Lyne Morissette]

Yes, that's correct.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

What mammals do you specialize in?

[Dr. Lyne Morissette]

Right now I work on endangered species like the North Atlantic right whales, but I've worked quite a lot on seals for my master's and Ph.D.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You must have a lot of background, then, on seals and so on. How many pounds of fish does a seal eat or require in one day?

[Lyne Morissette]

It depends on the species, but a seal like a grey seal can eat up to 3,000 pounds of fish per year. That's quite a lot.