Evidence of meeting #127 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was vessels.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Welsford  President, Port of Bridgewater Incorporated
Ian Winn  Director, Átl'ḵa7tsem Howe Sound UNESCO Biosphere Region
Leonard Lee  Board Chair and Director, Area A - Egmont and Pender Harbour, Sunshine Coast Regional District
Joshua Charleson  Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society
Marie-Christine Lessard  Executive Director, Québec Subaquatique
Clément Drolet  Diving Instructor, Québec Subaquatique

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

The requirement to transfer vessel ownership is actually on Transport Canada's website.

6:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

It's not enforceable, I guess. Nobody's out there, actually enforcing it.

The other thing with vessel insurance is that it's extremely costly. Even just for a crappy little tin boat, you have to pay up front for the whole year. It's definitely a huge barrier with vessel insurance, as well, that you can't pay a monthly fee for any vessel of any size. It's up front and you have to pay it that day. Otherwise, you don't have insurance.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Thank you.

You said that no one is checking on the ownership of vessels. That's interesting. It sounds like the regulations are there, but they're not being enforced. We've heard that from other testimony as well.

You also mentioned that there needs to be a better ability to designate a vessel as being a vessel of concern. Can you elaborate a little further on that?

6:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

Yes. Because it's on the ocean, it's considered federal jurisdiction, but once it's on shore, it's considered provincial jurisdiction. Then there's always that in between, where it's still floating outside of our shore, so you have to talk to Coast Guard or you have to talk to Transport Canada until it's actually on shore, where it's provincial. It's hard to get the right answers on who to actually call when you have a vessel of concern.

The Coast Guard probably does the best job out of all the different agencies that have jurisdiction for vessels, but they focus on the big ones. They don't focus on anything small. They focus on large vessels that have high potential for environmental damage.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Are you aware of any standards for identifying a vessel of concern, or should there be standards for declaring a vessel of concern?

6:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

We have in-house standards that we use when we're filling out “S-38s”, I believe they're called, for when we're looking for funding through the abandoned boats program. We use Survey123 with a whole different set of standards in terms of what to look for on the vessels and any identification. There are about 40 or 50 different pieces of information that we fill out for that, that we've actually—

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC

Are they adequate?

6:20 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

They're adequate for our uses, but none of them are anything formal that we need to do. Do you know what I mean? I don't know what kind of process the federal government uses in identifying VOCs, but I know from working with our first nations partners, such as Snuneymuxw First Nation, that they go out there regularly to do a check on boats after big rains. They know all the vessels that need to be removed or the ones that are going to sink. They become way more costly to remove as soon as they sink. You just put the bill up twofold or threefold, because now you're looking at divers, a barge, a crane and all this stuff.

Building out that framework, giving the ability for first nations to govern their territories and steward them properly and having that MOU and training and framework and everything else that goes along with creating this plan is the necessary first step, I think, to really bolstering the VOC. We don't see enforcement out in B.C., or not on the west coast or the Salish Sea where I've worked, anyway. I think we need it.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We'll go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

While everybody was chatting about this, I had a chance to look online for some information on the Empress of Ireland. That looks like a very fascinating story. It must be a wonderful dive for those who can make it.

I will go to you, Mr. Charleson, for my questions. Would there be any value in having a system whereby collection spots could be created where people could basically volunteer their vessel? It would make barging a lot more efficient, obviously, if you had everybody collected in one spot. You could load them up and take them to this facility that you have in mind.

Is anything like that going on right now, or could it be set up?

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

There's nothing formal, but when you're working with coastal communities, usually there's a spot where people put their boats. You'll just see a cluster of abandoned boats, about 40 or 50, where the dead boats go. If there were actually designated spots that were funded to be cleaned up, with standards and somebody actually checking in your boat—this boat came from so-and-so and it's in this condition—that would be extremely helpful. The problem is that people just drop them wherever. Then you have to go retrieve them from wherever.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Right. If it could be done at, say, a nominal cost, I'm sure it would at least cut down on the number of people doing the “dock and dash”, if you want to call it that.

In our previous session, we heard from a chap by the name of Gordon Edwards. I don't know if you're familiar with that name. I asked him about business opportunities for the breaking up of boats and the reclaiming of materials. He said that there are opportunities and there's funding available, but nobody seems to want to go down that road. It sounds like you do.

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

There are a few salvage places around the island, but they're full.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Yes. However, Mr. Edwards said there is money available, but there are no takers, simply because nobody seems to be interested in doing this. Anyway, I'm sure the clerk or somebody can get you some contact info. Maybe you could follow up with them.

What about the manufacturers? We talked about the difficulties in dealing with fibreglass, especially. Are there things for the people who make these boats in the first place, such as new techniques and new materials? Could those be a little kinder to the environment and, obviously, end-of-life disposal?

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

I don't know. I've never built a boat, so I'm not too sure.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Okay.

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

My operations manager has built boats and stuff like that. I'm sure he would be able to answer that, but I don't know.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

As we look toward trying to solve the immediate problem, we also have to look at changes we can make to prevent the next wave of problems coming in. We've heard a lot about registration fees and perhaps setting something up that will look after boats at the end of their lives, so the liability, if you like, of owning a boat at the end of its service is diminished, because there's a fund to look after it, like an insurance fund, or an ICBC-type fund.

Do you think that would work?

November 6th, 2024 / 6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

Yes. Any kind of structure would work right now—anything that will fund the removal of vessels—because the onus is just on vessel owners.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Then, of course—

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

If you've paid insurance on a vessel for the last 50 years, the vessel insurance companies will not give you a cent for dismantling it, unless it sinks at the dock. Then they come in.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

It would appear that, as we look at trying to solve the current problem, we want to think about having abandonment as the trigger. Nobody is showing a vessel any love. It's been sitting there for a certain period of time. It's been noticed. Maybe a notice goes up: “If this is yours, you'd better claim it. Otherwise, by such and such a date, it's ours.”

Wouldn't something like that work?

You're right. Waiting until something sinks and becomes a navigation hazard or pollutes all over the place is a little too late. We need to be a little more proactive. Wouldn't you say?

6:25 p.m.

Executive Director, Coastal Restoration Society

Joshua Charleson

I agree 100%.

However, we need the personnel to do that. We need people checking in who have the authority to do that. I was talking about Snuneymuxw. They have guardians who go out and check on these boats, but they don't have the authority to declare a vessel a “vessel of concern”, “hazardous to navigation” or anything like that. They can report it and hope the Canadian Coast Guard comes out, with its capacity, to take a look and declare it a VOC.

However, as I was saying, they generally focus on the big environmental hazards—boats over 12 metres long. I'm talking about the dailies, like the six-metre-long boat and the 10-metre-long boat. They add up very quickly. One of those sinking in a pristine estuary is enough to destroy massive amounts of eelgrass, salmon and everything else.

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

We've heard that.

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I'm sorry, Mr. Hardie. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less.