Fisheries Committee on Dec. 4th, 2024

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Well, there you go.

The minister clearly said the part of the country that represents the most commercial value, worth, as my colleague Mr. Small said, over 20% of the value of the Canadian fishery in that area, gets nothing. The minister has the final say. It looks to me like a political decision using taxpayer money to try to save her own arse against Kristina Michaud, and you're being used to do it as bureaucrats. To me, that's shameful. You should not allow the minister to make political decisions like that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for six minutes or less.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. That was interesting. That was maybe the worst episode of Matlock ever, to try to put logic behind it.

I want to get to some questions with respect to, in particular, small craft harbours, but before that I want to go to C and P.

As to the investments we need to make in C and P, we need more C and P officers and more intel and equipment for C and P officers to take on what is a difficult job. I have admiration for them, whether they're working in South Shore—St. Margarets, Cape Breton Island or any point in between. The world has gotten more dangerous for those men and women because of a lot of issues around underground sales and a lot of other criminal activity.

I'm looking to see what we are doing to up our game in the C and P world with respect to providing resources, personnel and things of that nature.

[Annette Gibbons]

There's an awful lot going on in the C and P space. I think everyone is aware that this summer we had complaints from some of our officers in the maritime region of Nova Scotia and southwest New Brunswick about danger under the Canada Labour Code. There's a multiphased process to go through in dealing with such complaints. Through that process, there was a decision on danger by the investigators at the labour program, particularly with respect to long arm rifles and individuals who have criminal involvement.

As part of the multiple phases we went through and the final ruling, we have been making a number of changes to the policies and procedures for our officers to make sure they are safe, because that is our top priority, of course. We have done some very specific things on the safety front with the equipment they have. Hard body armour is something we are moving to. We have started a pilot with an initial set of hard body armour for officers to wear in certain situations, if that is warranted. Body-worn cameras are another piece of equipment they have been working with for some time, but we're moving that along and accelerating and expanding their use.

Of course, those are just our policies and the rules of engagement they follow. They never have to engage if they are in danger, and that is really important, but we have been going over those policies and procedures and making sure that everything is up to the minute and reflective of the environment and the changes in the environment in which they are operating.

We are making sure their training is appropriate for the kinds of situations they face and making sure the protocols around engagement of the RCMP, for example, and other law enforcement personnel are fully understood and invoked as needed.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

My phone just died. How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have two minutes and 24 seconds.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

The minister alluded to the new regulatory framework with respect to elvers. I'm wondering if there's anything right now that you can dive into on what we should expect in the new regulatory framework. Then I will hopefully have a comment to make at the end of my time.

[Annette Gibbons]

The new regulatory framework is intended to expand beyond the existing regulatory authorities—which are about harvesting elvers and possession of them by a fish harvester—to move along the supply chain to require licences for other points along the supply chain.

If you're going to be exporting elvers all the way out to export, you will now need to have an export licence as well. It's a very comprehensive approach to regulating in this sector that will give us much greater visibility in real time of the elvers that are harvested, and it will allow us better knowledge of whether elvers are coming from another country and there's no export permit for them—that sort of thing. It'll give us much better visibility into the whole market.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have a minute.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'll go to Commissioner Pelletier.

With respect to the Coast Guard's role in working with C and P, can you highlight what we may be doing differently in the coming year that we're not doing now in terms of the investments you're looking for?

[Mario Pelletier]

Obviously, some of the investments we're receiving for new ships will support that, because new ships will be more reliable and have better technology.

It's also about reporting when we see something from ships that do not have a C and P officer on board. We have a process there to make sure we capture the information and it gets reported to the program so that if any action has to be taken, it can be taken afterwards.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Despite what our friends may sometimes think, we take action to improve people's lives. I'm sure that you do the same. I'm sure that my colleagues in the other two parties want the same thing too.

With this in mind, I would like to ask you my next question.

Who works at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans? There are bureaucrats, fisheries officers, Coast Guard workers and scientists. Do people focus only on protecting the resource, or do they also take the human factor into account when assessing the impact of certain departmental decisions? Is anyone assessing the social, psychological and economic impact of these decisions in certain coastal regions?

[Annette Gibbons]

Absolutely. For example, we have people who work as economists and analyze the impact of fisheries, the value of what is fished and the impact on coastal communities.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

You have economists, but do you have sociologists or psychosociologists? Do those positions exist within your department?

[Annette Gibbons]

We don't have sociologists per se. However, people who hold positions as economists also deal with sociological and statistical issues.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If you want more funding, could you consider using this budget to improve studies in that regard?

I'm telling you, we hear about difficult things. Although we're being criticized, we did a tour of the Maritimes because we wanted to hear what the people around us were saying. As we know, Quebec is linked to the maritime provinces by the river, the gulf, the estuary. We wanted to talk to them about how they felt and how things were going on their side. That's why we were in the Maritimes recently. We went there with the ultimate goal of understanding the fisheries issue in its entirety.

Is your department considering the possibility of managing the protection of the resource, of course, but without overlooking the human factor and the repercussions on humans when a decision is made? It's all well and good to want to save a fish, but people have come here to tell us that, to save a fish, three families who own a company are being destroyed.

Is it possible for budgets to be set aside in your department to hire specialists to assess these kinds of effects?

[Annette Gibbons]

As I was saying, our department has teams of people who do this kind of analysis in all regions.

The advisory committees on the various fisheries have discussions on the economic impacts. The Fisheries Act says that the minister must consider economic and socio-economic factors in fisheries decisions. Yes, the minister does receive advice on the socio-economic impacts for each fishery. That includes scientific advice, but it also includes socio-economic advice.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

How can we explain that certain decisions are greatly affecting mackerel and herring fishers, for example? That was also the case for shrimpers recently. For a number of years, we've been saying that the redfish fishery needs to be opened because it's a major predator attacking the shrimp resource. The shrimpers have sounded the alarm, but there's no such contact or measure. It's as if there's something missing between what's happening on the ground and the department's decisions. That's why I'm trying to propose a mediation mechanism.

Could you consider funding for a mediation mechanism, so that we can have a better understanding between the people on the ground and the people who work at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans?

[Annette Gibbons]

We hear a lot from fishers' associations in this regard and they do a lot of—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

However, they tell us every time that they're there as a decoration. No matter what they say, it doesn't resonate.

Perhaps there should be an environmental mediation. Could that be included in the budget?

[Annette Gibbons]

The department can't really make decisions without the advice of coastal communities. Taking that into consideration and incorporating it into decisions is part of the minister's obligations. The advisory committees are there to do that kind of analysis and to hold discussions on the socio-economic impacts of the fisheries. I think it's already built into the advice the department provides to the minister.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If it's integrated, how is it that we're hearing this kind of comment from stakeholders on the ground? I'm just trying to understand and come up with solutions.

[Annette Gibbons]

Yes, certainly.