Fisheries Committee on Dec. 11th, 2024

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. Thank you.

Mr. Hardie, it's your time.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

Let's be a devil here. This is a big country. Things are different up north from how they are in the east or out west. Do you think we actually need three DFOs and not one big one trying to do everything for everybody right across the country?

That's for Mr. Allen and Mr. Wareham—

[Carl Allen]

That's a very complex question. I don't know.

I think you do need DFO Ottawa. I honestly think you need that. I just think it needs to be better put together. I think the regions need some autonomy in their actions, but when you look at international policy and stuff like that, which the country is signing on to, you need that central agency to organize and coordinate, and to understand how it affects regions A, B and C.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I have a couple of seconds, so I'm going to sneak one more in here.

Out of 10, where one is horrible and 10 is excellent, how do you rate DFO science?

[Carl Allen]

Overall, I rate it at five, but there are places where it's a one, and there are places where it's a nine.

[A voice]

Thank you. That's a good answer.

[Alberto Wareham]

That's a very good answer.

I think most of you know, as I've said, in the Newfoundland region, we definitely have some challenges that we don't seem to have in other regions. For example, we have a collaborative agreement on Atlantic halibut in Nova Scotia. The industry has done extremely well in the Maritimes for Atlantic halibut, but we seem to have an issue in the Newfoundland region.

[Dwan Street]

I agree.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

I want to go to—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You? I'm not going to you.

I'm going to Madame Desbiens now for two minutes, so that Ms. Barron can have two minutes before we finish up—that's two minutes each.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Wow. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Madame Desbiens.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be brief, to leave two minutes for my colleague as well.

You touched on something interesting when you talked about three different approaches that would be managed through an organization model based on a more decentralized structure. That model would leave a lot more room for other scientists, who could then have a say in decisions that would be made differently, because sociological, economic and ecological factors would play a role in making them.

What do you think of the idea of having an environmental mediation body that would handle Fisheries and Oceans Canada's decision-making process rather than the politics? I'm thinking here of environmental mediation where everyone is fairly represented and has a say. Could this be a reassuring option that would restore confidence in the fishing industry and its economy? You were talking about an agency, and I liked that idea.

[Carl Allen]

It definitely wouldn't hurt.

I think the other part is the actual collaborative nature. Part of the problem with the regions, the central organization and how it works is that there's a bit of compartmentalization. They don't really speak with one another.

I had a DFO person working the gulf who said that she'd like to come on a boat. I think it should be a prerequisite or part of their employment contract that they have to spend time on a vessel. Somebody at 200 Kent Street should have to spend time in each of the six regions, because that's the problem. The problem with 200 Kent is that they don't understand the implications of their decisions in the Gaspé, in New Brunswick, on Prince Edward Island or on the West Coast. You have to get them out there, into those communities. That's why the federation does its summer meetings in a fishing community, to try to get those people out to understand the implications of their decisions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two minutes.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the other witnesses here as well.

My last question is for Ms. Street.

Ms. Street, can you please share the number one way you feel we can make sure that we're keeping the benefits of fisheries in coastal communities and protecting coastal communities against the corporatization, in particular, of Newfoundland's fishery? What would be the number one thing we can do in relation to the act?

[Dwan Street]

We have preached this for 25 years. It all comes down to the owner-operator policy. Owner-operator is the pillar, and that's how we protect it. When we speak to our colleagues on the west coast, they look at what we have, and they look around themselves and see the deterioration of their industry. They know that if they had an owner-operator policy that was held up and actually enforced, then they'd probably have fisheries with the same value as ours.

We have a demographic issue right now. We have a lot of young folks [Inaudible—Editor] of young harvesters wanting to get into the industry and hold enterprises. That's increasing, but we need to really enforce the owner-operator policy, ensure that we take down some of those barriers and allow access. Until the department is fully resourced to do so, until there's enforcement and somebody's held accountable—until one of those companies loses a full-time crab licence in 3L—it's just not going to happen, and nothing is going to change.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Street.

I'm going to give you back those few seconds that I took last time, Mr. Chair.

There you go.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

Would anyone mind if I used the last 30 seconds of Ms. Barron's for a question?

My question would be for Ms. Street.

Years ago, when the union was formed, whether it was Father Des McGrath or Richard Cashin, they had the thought that they had to form a union for people to have a voice. We're talking about corporate concentration now entering into it, buying up licences and that.

How can we, as a government, through regulation, stop that?

You've said it: Lawyers can make something look like something that it's not, in the courts. By tracking that, following it and following the money, so to speak, you'll find out who, at the end of the day, actually owns that particular entity.

What do we do to solve that better than what we're doing now?

[Dwan Street]

Thank you, Chair.

I think you just said it. I'll credit Brian Guptill with the Grand Manan Fishermen's Association as well.

Follow the money. We've been saying that for years. It's a matter of...if you look at the financial records of an enterprise and 50% of that money is unaccounted for, you know it went somewhere. It's not on the share sheet. It's not rocket science, but we're just not seeing it.

I think there needs to be much more collaboration with fish harvester organizations on how to do this, not just centralized decision-making in Ottawa.

On the ground, it's resources. I don't envy the department locally here in Newfoundland and Labrador, because whether it's in licensing, resource management or science, we need more resources. It's unfortunate that you can't go down to White Hills now, walk in and just speak to somebody. I know those relationships are lost.

I think DFO and government need to get on the ground and work with our organizations on how to fix this, because we know how to do it. We've been saying it for years. I just don't think it's being heard.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

That concludes our meeting for today.

I want to say a huge thank you to Mr. Allen and Mr. Wareham for being here again. Welcome to Dwan Street here. I think this is the first time we've had her for this length of time before the committee.

Again, congratulations to everyone. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the committee as we go forward to write the recommendations that will come from this.

On that note, I will wish a merry Christmas to everybody, and happy new year.

We'll probably be here Monday. There's a good chance of that, but we don't have anything lined up yet. The clerk is trying to reach some witnesses, and they're not anxious to come on that particular Monday.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I think we should put you in the witness chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You can do that too, if you like.

All right, the meeting is adjourned.

Thank you, everyone.