Fisheries Committee on March 31st, 2022

[Karen Wristen]

My apologies. I am executive director of Living Oceans Society. We're a non-profit organization based in Sointula, B.C.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The issue with the rules governing ships, how they're loaded, how they're operated, etc., are international, of course, because they move from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Generally speaking, if a ship is coming into Vancouver harbour, for instance, are you aware of whether it's likely that they'll be visiting other ports up and down the west coast as part of their overall voyage?

[Karen Wristen]

I don't think one can generalize about ships in general. It is certainly possible, but we'd need to be more specific.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We can have the most wonderful rules, but it would seem that international agreements would distill them down to the lowest common denominator if we're dealing with ships that are going from port to port to port, up and down a particular coast of a continent.

You said that the vessels being put into service are “less seaworthy”. What do you have to back up that claim?

[Karen Wristen]

Perhaps less seaworthy is the wrong term. They are “less resilient” to the types of storms we're seeing more frequently in the Pacific Ocean in particular. Longer ships—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Is there any technical information that you can offer us, or perhaps send to us off-line, as we deliberate on our recommendations?

[Karen Wristen]

I certainly can. Yes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That would be excellent.

You mentioned too that the Maersk vessels were able to help fight the fire. Are you proposing that the federal government essentially duplicate the capacity that's already there in the private sector? Or do you think there's a partnership, say, or some kind of mobilization agreement where we can take advantage of material and facilities that are in place already?

[Karen Wristen]

Those tugs are not necessarily available to us on demand for a spill. That's the problem with relying on the private sector assets. Those two tugs just happened to be in Victoria at the right time. We need reliable capacity for responding to spills that we can call on when we need it.

So yes, I'm suggesting that the federal government should invest in it and that it should be paid for, at least in part, by a levy on the shippers.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Harris, what's the annual budget of Surfrider? What kind of money does it take to keep your organization afloat, if you'll pardon that?

[Lucas Harris]

Surfrider Foundation Canada is a grassroots organization. We are in the beginning stages of becoming a formal international affiliate of the broader Surfrider Foundation network.

The current annual budget right now is around $160,000 for several paid staff and some essential operation activities.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

The reason for asking is that is we have investigated a number of different aspects of what goes on in the ocean, etc. I'm impressed, but at the same time concerned about the number of organizations that seem to crop up and present themselves to us that have tremendous goals and really want to do a great deal of good work. There just seems to be so many of them. I just don't know if we're diluting our overall effort by having so many people wanting to do good that we're duplicating effort and we're uncoordinated and all of those things.

Does that concern you? Do you see any effort, in fact, to pull together all these NGOs who all want to do the right thing but may be getting in each other's way?

[Lucas Harris]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Hardie. I see where you're coming from.

I would say in response that Surfrider Foundation has been one of the key organizations involved in the marine debris issue in B.C. We did some of the first remote cleanups back in 2010 and have continued doing that type of work and really raising awareness about the scale of the issue of marine debris impact on the coast of British Columbia.

In fact, we observe the need for coordination amongst organizations. We connected with Ms. Wristen and her organization early on and collaborated to be the co-founders of the BC Marine Debris Working Group, which at that point was called the Vancouver Island marine debris working group.

We, of course, are very much tuned in to the need for collaboration across this myriad of environmental groups. We've been around since the beginning of this issue, I would argue—both Living Oceans and Surfrider Foundation—and are definitely seeking solutions to increase collaboration across the grassroots and non-profit sector.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. There are only about 12 seconds left in your time.

We'll go to Madam Gaudreau for six minutes or less, please.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their presentations.

I won't be asking many questions, because I'll be using my time to share my thoughts. This is a public meeting. It's being recorded. Our messages can be shared.

I'm pleased to have heard your presentations this morning. In the past few minutes, many comments have affected me deeply. I want you to know that your work is critical. Keep it up, because we're getting to the real issues. We thought, from the start, that we had to hurry up and respond. Why? Because as imports and exports increase, so does our port capacity, both in eastern Canada, particularly along the Saint Lawrence River, and in British Columbia.

I took note of your recommendations, which I fully endorse. I'm also eager for the committee to list them. I completely agree with your view on how difficult it can be to understand certain issues, such as containers that slip away and are never found.

I find it a little difficult to explain this type of situation to my children. I tell them that it's a bit like cell phone networks, which can pose public safety issues. We can travel to the moon, but we can't install cell phone networks throughout Quebec and Canada. It's the same thing for the oceans. We have all the necessary technology, but unfortunately, we're missing something. What are we missing? We lack the political will. I want you to know right now that people, parliamentarians, support you and believe you. Your voice is extremely important if we want to make progress.

Just a minute ago, I heard about some assistance measures introduced in various places. I believe that, if you're here today and you're so vigilant, then the government hasn't done its job. Your response is a collective action to save Mother Earth, and we're all affected.

I think that the complacency observed shows the need for political will. Your work must continue, and your message must be hammered home. I encourage you to not necessarily wait for an invitation to pass on the message. Your presentations have been extremely clear. I want to say that, with our new structure—as you heard, we have an alliance with an opposition party—projects will be more easily accepted in Parliament. I really believe that, ultimately, we'll be walking the talk if we can manage to get along.

I'll ask you one question. I'd like to hear your thoughts on a statement that came out last Tuesday and that I'm sure you heard. The science says that dangerous materials that fall into the ocean wouldn't cause problems once they have dissolved. I haven't seen the report yet.

Given your expertise, what do you think of this statement? I would like to hear from each of you in turn.

[Karen Wristen]

If I could begin, the solution to pollution was never dilution. Has these containers that contained the dangerous chemicals washed up in nearshore waters, they could have wiped out all life in an inlet or a bay.

We don't know the volume of the material that was contained in them, so we can't properly quantify the risk. That's just wrong. We need to be able to do that.

[Alys Hoyland]

I'd love to jump in as well.

There are serious concerns about long-term monitoring as well. When we can't accurately track where these containers are and we don't know where the load of chemicals will eventually spill, it's almost impossible for us to engage in any long-term monitoring and to fully understand, from a scientific perspective, what the ramifications of that chemical being in the aquatic environment will be. Until we have that information, we can't categorically say what is or isn't going to happen, from a scientific perspective.

Personally, I find it unacceptable that we are accepting that a certain level of chemical pollution is okay in our waters.

[Lucas Harris]

I will add that Canada is endowed with some of the most amazing natural environment spaces and ecosystems. It's in the best interest of the committee to think about proactively being cautious about how we manage these materials and respond to spills. It's in our best interest to do all that we can to find ways to reduce the impact to the natural environment. There's an opportunity here to really demonstrate leadership in a way that is desperately needed to reduce the impact of these types of spills.

Avoiding acknowledging the allowance of spills and considering that the material won't be of impact would be a bad approach. It's important to find ways to avoid these spills from happening altogether.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

First and foremost, I want to express a huge thanks for all the work you're doing to protect our coasts, working on such a shoestring budget. It's clear that there have been many challenges in being able to do the work that you're doing. It is incredible what you're able to accomplish.

I also want to thank you for your ongoing efforts to collaborate together. I'm impressed by the work that's coming out of the BC Marine Debris Working Group, and your ongoing efforts to collaborate amongst one another as organizations that are doing this work, but also to collaborate and communicate with the Coast Guard and all those involved, in particular with those who are contracted to take on this work by the shipper.

I'm hearing, from everybody I've spoken to so far, about the challenges in having a shipper contract an organization to do the cleanup that does not understand the landscape in which they're working and that is not communicating effectively with those who are on the ground, the first nations and organizations like yours.

This question could perhaps go to Ms. Wristen.

We heard from the Coast Guard officials about wanting to work alongside first nations. However, we saw a big disconnect, for example, with communications with the Quatsino First Nation in the first few weeks.

I'm wondering if you can speak to this and the challenges, please.

[Karen Wristen]

I think that the Coast Guard is still grappling with fully taking on board the incident command system, and that it does not yet have permanent and reliable connections with the first nations communities, who ought to have had a seat at the table from the get-go. I understand there was one nation at the table, but it was not Quatsino, and that's where the containers fetched up. That's where the locus of the on-the-ground cleanup effort occurred.

I happen to know, because I know Chief Tom Nelson. I telephoned him and discovered that the contractor had not contracted with him for labour to clean up the spill. At the same time, the contractor was asking us, the BC Marine Debris Working Group, to send in volunteer labour. That's just not right. The first nations come first.

I told the contractor to make a deal with Quatsino before speaking to us further about what labour was needed. That caused additional delay, but it had to happen. That is the way that things should be done.

This is one reason why we recommend a joint spill response task force. The Coast Guard needs help in putting together the regional response plans and the regional response people, personnel and equipment, that are going to be needed. Let's get on with planning for it, because there's going to be another one of these spills soon.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Wristen.

I'm wondering if those from Surfrider could speak a bit more about the delays in getting permission to start their work, specifically on how that played out with the Zim Kingston.

Perhaps I could ask Ms. Hoyland about that.

[Alys Hoyland]

Immediately after the spill and as soon as we heard that it had happened, we in the Pacific Rim branch started reaching out to our local Coast Guard networks in Tofino and also the Pacific Rim National Park Reserve. The spill happened alarmingly close to where the Hanjin happened five years previously, so we were fully prepared for those containers to maybe wash up on beaches close to us. We wanted to get the plans in motion and to establish the connections with the federal agencies and the people who were involved on the ground.

When it became clear that wasn't going to happen, that the containers had moved further north, we reached out to the BC Marine Debris Working Group and to the regional command of the Coast Guard to establish what resources we had available as a collective. We also communicated that to the Coast Guard, so that, again, we knew what we had available, and we were able to [Technical difficulty—Editor] the importance of speed in these situations. The longer the stuff sits on the ground, the further it spreads and the worse the situation gets. We communicated that proactively, and we were ready to respond.

Unfortunately, the cost of the polluter pays principle, and the need for the owner of the ship to contract someone to coordinate the cleanup.... We were essentially actively dissuaded from engaging in any cleanup for weeks. It wasn't until we approached the contractor to say, “These are the resources we have. Can we support you?” that the conversation even went anywhere.

It was disappointing because, as I said, we had resources, human resources, boat assets, and all of the frameworks that we've developed from working together for such a long time. We were ready to go and to respond in a timely manner, but we weren't asked to do that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Hoyland.

Both you and Mr. Harris spoke to the work you did as an organization around the Hanjin Seattle spill in 2016. It's really important that we take the lessons learned from previous spills and also now from the Zim Kingston, and apply them to our work moving forward.

I'm wondering if you could speak a bit to the experience of the lessons learned from the previous spill in 2016, and how it compared to the response that we saw most recently with the Zim Kingston.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron. We've gone over time, so if the witnesses could submit an answer to that question in writing, it would be appreciated.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.