Evidence of meeting #18 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was scientific.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bernard Vigneault  Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Judith Leblanc  Science Advisor, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Matthew Hardy  Regional Director, Science, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Kristi Miller-Saunders  Senior Research Scientist, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Mona Nemer  Chief Science Advisor, Office of the Chief Science Advisor
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Tina Miller

11:40 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I've been told we're back and up and running. I apologize for the delay. It's this modern age of technology that we live in today. Everybody is so dependent on it in more ways than one. The clerk is going to check to see if we can add the time on at the end.

We're going to start from the beginning because apparently nothing was actually captured for ParlVU. I hope the witnesses have the time to stay with us.

If possible, I'll ask Mr. Vigneault to start off again with his opening statement so that it will be captured and recorded for somebody to look at it sometime down the road, if they're interested. Again, we'll start from the top, if that's okay with everyone, and we'll go on from there.

11:40 a.m.

Dr. Bernard Vigneault Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to discuss the science conducted by Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

I am the director general responsible for ecosystem science, which includes environment and ecosystems, ocean and climate, fisheries and marine mammal science.

I am joined today by my colleagues from the science sector, who represent a broad range of departmental scientific expertise and our geographic footprint across Canada.

I would like to present Andrew Thomson, regional director, science, Pacific region, who is responsible for the science activities in British Columbia and Yukon; Mr. Matthew Hardy, regional director, gulf region, who is responsible for the science program within the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence; and Tana Worcester, director, strategic science planning and program integrity in the Maritimes region, who leads Canadian science advisory secretariat processes and science planning.

We also have Dr. Judith Leblanc, science advisor for the Quebec region, from the National Contaminants Advisory Group at DFO.

Finally, I would like to present Dr. Kristi Miller-Saunders, research scientist, DFO Pacific, who conducts genetics and genomics research on salmon in B.C.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada relies on a strong and vibrant science sector. Each year, DFO science mobilizes teams of research scientists, biologists and technicians to conduct field and laboratory studies for hundreds of distinct projects in marine and freshwater systems. This results in a wealth of knowledge about our ecosystems and fish populations to support the departmental decision-making. The science sector has expertise in a wide range of fields, including marine environment and aquatic ecosystems, hydrography, oceanography, fisheries, aquaculture and biotechnology.

DFO science is made up of science professionals located in research institutes, laboratories, experimental centres and offices across the country. Science staff collect data and conduct research and monitoring activities, the results of which contribute to the science advice that can be used to answer specific questions or to inform decisions.

As a science-based department, science integrity is essential to the work of the department and its employees. Science integrity is critical to the decision-making process, from the planning and conduct of research to the production and the application of advice. Departmental scientists are bound by our code of ethics and values, and our science integrity policy, which reinforces principles such as transparency, scientific excellence and ensuring high standards of research ethics.

DFO generates science advice in a transparent way, using the Canadian science advisory secretariat, which is based on the principle of evidence-based peer review. Participants in the peer review process participate as objective experts to complete the peer review of the science under consideration. To guide participation, DFO has published a conflict of interest policy and a policy on participation for the CSAS meetings.

Peer review is a vital component of the important challenge function that the DFO science sector provides. Its reviews have included domestic and international scientific experts from government, academia, indigenous communities, environmental non-governmental organizations and industry experts. The objective of the peer review meetings is to provide sound, objective and impartial science information and advice.

The results of these peer reviews and the supporting analyses are published on the department's website. These scientific analyses inform departmental decision-making and provide Canadians with the scientific analyses and advice generated by the departmental science staff. DFO also supports open science, has an action plan and continues to publish data, including through the open government data portals. All DFO science reports are open and accessible.

DFO science works with a range of partners when undertaking its research activities. Our researchers and staff collaborate with scientists from other government departments, universities, indigenous communities, environmental organizations as well as members of industry. Collaboration contributes expertise, knowledge, analyses, data, samples and platforms.

Those collaborations contribute to scientific excellence within our department, extend the breadth of the expertise we have access to, demonstrate Canadian leadership internationally and help to inform the sound and critical science basis for decision-making.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you for that.

We'll go back to Mr. Perkins—almost like a rewind—for your six minutes or less.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I might start a little differently this time and ask witnesses if they could try to keep their answers as brief as possible for all sides, because we all have limited time.

I'd like to start off.... I don't know if it's Mr. Vigneault I should ask.

When the minister is presented with decisions to make with regard to the status of a stock or a quota—whether it should be up or down or, in the case of Atlantic mackerel, suspended or eliminated—is the minister always presented with science for every single option?

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Bernard Vigneault

The short answer is yes. We provide, systematically, science advice to support the memo for decisions for the minister. The science advice is directly based on the peer review meetings that we conduct ahead of the process that leads to the decision.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Does the minister often ask questions around the details of that science, such as when it was conducted and what the trends are? Does the minister get into that kind of detail?

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Bernard Vigneault

Yes. Generally speaking, we offer a range of information from the science sector to support its decision. That includes briefings as and when requested and a specific subsection of the briefing material that relates to the science advice.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

We saw in the Discovery Islands court ruling last Friday that the minister chose an option that was not one of the four options put forward by the department.

How often does the minister choose an option that was not an option put forward by the department?

11:45 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Bernard Vigneault

The minister has full authority over fisheries decisions. What is provided to her is the science that is based, in part, on the best advice that has been peer-reviewed and is available to answer. However, on the decision, the minister has full authority to make decisions.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you. I may come back to some of those questions if I have time.

Ms. Leblanc, in your letter in November to the deputy minister, you stated that the senior officials in the department altered your recommendation before it went to the deputy minister.

How often have you or the scientists you represent experienced your work being altered by senior members of the department or the minister's office?

11:45 a.m.

Judith Leblanc Science Advisor, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you for the question.

I did sign the letter you are referring to. However, it wasn't in my capacity as science advisor for the department, but as a union steward and consultation team president for the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada.

Out of respect for the process initiated with DFO and because it is not part of the duties for which I've been called to appear before this committee, namely those of scientific advisor, I will maintain the confidentiality of the discussions taking place with the department. Both the institute and its representatives wish to do so to facilitate an appropriate resolution.

11:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

A big part of our study is to understand how often the department minister used the decision-making process and what the process is. It is incumbent before a parliamentary committee for officials to comment, when their letters have been made public, about how often alterations are made by senior officials. Perhaps we can come back to that.

Ms. Leblanc, or any of the other members, is it regularly presented as part of the science—

11:45 a.m.

Bloc

Caroline Desbiens Bloc Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

There is no interpretation.

11:45 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

We'll suspend for a moment for that to get checked.

Is it okay now? Perfect. That was quick.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Mr. Chair, I'm not sure which witness can answer this question. Perhaps it's Mr. Vigneault.

When recommendations go to the minister on any species and the actions required, do they contain information about the experience of the fishing community and how it's experiencing a particular issue with regard to a species?

11:50 a.m.

Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Dr. Bernard Vigneault

Thank you for the question.

Obviously, I can only reply in general terms, as I'm responsible for the science input to the process.

Along with the science input, all other inputs received through the consultation—not just through official fisheries management advisory meetings—are summarized and provided for decision-making.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you.

In a particular case—

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Actually, Mr. Perkins, there are about 11 seconds left, which is hardly time for a question or any sort of answer.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you to the witnesses.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Mr. Vigneault, could you raise your mike a little bit? They're having trouble hearing, and they're getting some cracking sounds through the mike. It's hard on the interpreters' ears.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for being with us today.

Canadians need to trust the science, but it is also part of our role to question how fish stocks are assessed and how decisions are made.

In the past two weeks, for example, the department has made decisions that have impacted my region, such as the closure of the spring herring fishery, the closure of the mackerel fishery and significantly decreased shrimp quotas.

I'll start with herring. The herring fishery is closed. The industry had been expecting this for several years, as there has been a noted decline in the resource.

I know Mr. Hardy is from the Gulf region. So, my question is for him, and it's strictly about herring.

Mr. Hardy, how do you make the decision to close a given fishery? How do you collect the data? At what point do you decide to close a fishery?

11:50 a.m.

Matthew Hardy Regional Director, Science, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you for the question.

We assess herring stocks using a variety of indicators, including data received from harvesters. We include abundance indices, derived from various scientific analyses, including sample-based acoustic surveys conducted at sea. All of this forms the scientific basis for our analysis of stock abundance and composition. In the case of herring, we have noted a decreased size at maturity. Various parameters indicate that stocks are not in good condition.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Is the purpose of sampling to reopen the fishery? The spring herring fishery is currently closed.

Are you sampling the resource? Are there stocks to speak of? Are you out on the water or working in your offices when doing the analyses? What are you currently doing in that respect?

11:50 a.m.

Regional Director, Science, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Matthew Hardy

In terms of sampling, we carry out projects in cooperation with industry stakeholders. In addition, Fisheries and Oceans Canada vessels will soon be at sea. We use a combination of data to assess the stocks. The information we derive from industry partnerships is an important factor in many of our assessments.

11:50 a.m.

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

As you know, we have spring herring along our coastline. I am being told there is currently no one on the water conducting scientific surveys. Hopefully that's not the case, but if it is, I hope you look into the matter and address it.

I'd now like to focus on shrimp. There's been a significant decline in shrimp stocks in recent years. What would you estimate the shrimp biomass in the Gulf is today, in tonnes?

I’m not asking about the total allowable catch, or TAC, but the total estimate of the resource.