Fisheries Committee on April 26th, 2022

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

When the minister asked my office to make recommendations on the use of science in the management of aquaculture, we had a discussion to get the focus right, which could be very broad. In this case, the focus was on the use of scientific advice and an assessment of the strategy for prioritizing science and science communications. My office then worked independently to identify experts in all relevant fields, both within and outside Canada, and then we began our work. Our office wrote a report and we sent it to the minister's office.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Was this report subsequently made public?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

Yes, it was made public.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In your approach to finding a panel of experts, do you have any particular concern for people in the field?

For instance, we often talk about indigenous people or local stakeholders in fisheries. Are they systematically included in your research?

I had to insist on capelin, for example. We set up an emergency committee to make the department aware that it should give priority to our two fishers that were endangered, not their fish.

Is consultation with stakeholders in the field built into the process?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I can assure you that we are mindful of equity and diversity in all our committees. In addition, we ensure diversity among academics and people working in the field, particularly on the community side, including indigenous communities. We know that this is a very important aspect for practically every area. This is certainly the case in the area you are focused on, which is fishing, but it is also the case in the area of health. This is what we have been doing over the past few years.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What worries you most in your work? Is it climate change, lack of financial and material resources to do your work, lack of collaboration or communication?

What is the most pressing issue for you at the moment?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

All of these issues are extremely important. In terms of science and scientific advice, what concerns me is that our sectors, our institutions and our various departments work in isolation, when the problems are extremely complex. The relevant science is extremely complex and that is true in many respects.

It is becoming increasingly important to ensure that there are no gaps in our knowledge. Knowledge is not acquired overnight; it takes time. It should not be in no-man's land. We need to have an appropriate view of the system ahead of time so that we can develop the knowledge, research and processes required to tackle it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So there is an interest in synthesis in order to be more effective. We could talk about maximising the efficiency of various fields of study.

Isn't that so?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

I wouldn't say it's about efficiency in the sense that it is often understood. It is not about industrial productivity, for example.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We understand each other on this.

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

This is a real concern. We want our knowledge to be as complete as possible and not to have a gap between different kinds of knowledge.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Dr. Nemer for being here today.

I want to gain an understanding. We're seeing that DFO scientists are doing a lot of good work, but we're seeing incidences where this good work isn't necessarily translating into policy. I can think of a couple of examples. One example we spoke about today was the 3Ps cod fishery. Another one is regarding the recent decisions made around the interior Fraser steelhead. Many examples are coming up.

In your position, do you track any incidences like this that are happening within specific departments?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

That's an important question.

If I may, I want to clarify my position. My position is not one that evaluates the science that is taking place and is being communicated to the government in each department. I'm not really an auditor or an ombudsperson. I have a more proactive function, if you will, which is to provide advice on how best to conduct the science and to provide science advice.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you for clarifying.

I guess I'm trying to understand. Do you have the ability to look at the different departments to see how they compare, to see if there's functionality in the set-up of the departments and if there are challenges or differences?

I'm just trying to understand if, the way things are done within DFO, there are challenges as a result of the structure itself. Do you have any input on that?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

It's certainly my hope, Mr. Chair, to highlight best practices and bring together communities of practices from different departments. In many ways, I look at the science workforce as a very important community within the community of the public service, which would gain a lot from increased communication, which is why we're such champions of open science.

We have created this kind of community as part of the open science, as part of the tools that we are trying to develop right now to help scientists and policy in the various departments to evaluate the science and to put in place the best possible mechanism for science advice that's, of course, adapted to the realities.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

We had Dr. Vigneault here prior to you. In his speaking notes he had some information specifically around DFO having published more than 450 datasets to the Open Government portal and all DFO science reports being open and accessible.

Further to your comment around best practices, are you able to speak specifically to the data that's being made available through DFO, the timeliness and what that accessibility is like within that site?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

Thank you for this important question, because it's one thing to make the data and the science open, but it's another to make it accessible. It's something else again to make it easily found and interoperable with other data that exists out there.

I will candidly say that this is an area in which we have more work to do because of the societal nature that I spoke about. It's sometimes difficult to find certain datasets and certain information that for sure exists out there. If you're from outside the government, you really need to have some patience to navigate your way until you find the data.

It is one of the projects my office is now doing with the various science-based departments, to create perhaps not one but a small number of repositories for the data and for the scientific reports that would be easily accessible to the public.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

I'm a new member of Parliament, so of course I'm taking this information based on what I read and watched. There was a FOPO study on wild Pacific salmon. From that study a recommendation was put forward to have the CSAS process more independent from DFO's work. I know this may or may not be unique to this department.

I'm wondering if you can highlight some thoughts around that and any best practices that you might want to share.

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

Again, thank you for this question.

As part of our analysis of the aquaculture science, we took a good look at the CSAS process at DFO, and I have to say that it is certainly very good that this process exists to synthesize the science. However, we made a number of recommendations to perhaps increase the efficiency and the transparency of the process itself, to examine how the topics and the people—the experts—are chosen, and to look at where the results of the CSAS process, whether it's a report or the synthesis of a symposium, are put and how quickly that is done.

I have to say that I was pleased to see that they've introduced a conflict of interest requirement, which is extremely important. It's not that you can't have people who come from industry or from other countries or other departments or even the same department, but any conflict of interest, perceived or real, needs to be disclosed, and that's a best practice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Nemer, in 2018 you led an independent expert panel on aquaculture science in producing a report that made a number of recommendations. Have you had any follow up with DFO or the fisheries' ministers since 2018? Have those recommendations been fully implemented? Do you feel there's been enough time that those recommendations should have been implemented by now?

[Dr. Mona Nemer]

One key recommendation from this report was the creation of the position of an independent departmental science adviser. That was done. This role exists in other government departments as well now. This is something that I'd like to see more generalized. They become part of the network with the chief science adviser, so that we can actually keep track of what's happening in departments and we can help each other.

I have—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you. That's one piece that's been done, but the other recommendations from that, specifically that quantitative methodologies and risk-science approaches be developed, have those recommendations been followed through?