Fisheries Committee on May 5th, 2022

[Greig Oldford]

It isn't easy to navigate. Especially in ecology, the time series and data we have are often very sparse, though we are starting to see good examples of long-term time series available for us to work with and are trying to incorporate them into the models. Often those time series and those observations don't come with a good understanding of exactly what the error is in them, so there is some struggle there putting, for example, a probability or a precise likelihood to, say, a management strategy that management wishes to evaluate. There are ongoing challenges with that and I think it's just something that may always be there.

The other thing I'd like to say about it is almost a caveat. The simulation modelling and computer modelling does play an outsized role in marine ecology, partially because you can't isolate variables. You can't do controlled experiments as easily. They are just models at the end of the day.

[Brendan Hanley, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Yes. Thank you very much.

I'll now cede my time to Ms. May.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you so much, Dr. Hanley, for giving me some of your time.

I'm, with two and a half minutes, ambitiously going to try to put two questions to two different witnesses, so here's to hoping.

First to Dr. Moran, your evidence and recommendations to this committee, drawing on your experience in the White House, included that we look at what we could do better about our most neglected ocean coastline and ocean in the Arctic. Dr. Robert also referenced that the data deficiencies for Arctic fisheries are quite high.

Could you briefly cover in a bit more detail what you think the federal government should be doing in relation to the Arctic?

[Dr. Kathryn Moran]

Yes. Thank you.

Very briefly, I think there are many interests across federal departments in the Arctic. As we've experienced at Ocean Networks Canada, we operate infrastructures that benefit many federal departments. We need to use our dollars wisely to put in as many autonomous systems as possible in the Arctic that then deliver information across those mandates. For example, situational awareness is critical in the Arctic, as is understanding the changing climate and as is understanding the fisheries. It's about getting those players together, identifying the needs and then putting in systems.

In many areas along our coast, many systems have to be autonomous to actually gather that information.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

Thank you.

I've been fortunate, committee members, to have visited Ocean Networks Canada frequently and it's mind-blowing to see what their equipment is capable of doing at sensing on the ocean floor.

My question for Dr. Mordecai is to pick up on his comment that there is a conflict of interest problem that is suppressing science in DFO, particularly in relation to PRV, and also to sea lice. We also heard evidence of suppression of science on Fraser steelhead in the interior.

Dr. Mordecai, maybe it's not something you can actually speculate on, but what the heck would be the conflict of interest within the department that's supposed to protect our fisheries and our coastline, which ends up deciding to have decision-based evidence making, instead of what we want, evidence-based decision-making?

[Dr. Gideon Mordecai]

I'd say the conflict would go down to the duality in the mandate of DFO, which is to obviously look after wild fish and fisheries, but also to regulate and promote the aquaculture industry. There will be cases where those things come head to head, and that is where the conflict comes about.

[Elizabeth May, Green, Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC]

My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You've gone over slightly, but we'll forgive you for that today.

We have to close off now at this point because, of course, Mr. Zimmer has provided us with a notice of motion that we have to deal with.

We'll say thank you to our witnesses for their informed participation here at committee today. It's been absolutely fantastic testimony and information. It's been very good, including the part on the seals and the sea lice.

I'll give our witnesses a moment to sign off and we'll go into a bit of committee business for Mr. Zimmer's motion.

I think everybody has signed off, Mr. Zimmer, but what I will say from the outset is that being that your notice of motion wasn't the topic for today—

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

—I'm going to ask for unanimous consent for you to be able to move your motion. I don't think you'll find much of a problem with that.

Do I have unanimous consent for Mr. Zimmer to move his motion?

All right.

You're good to go, sir.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, everybody.

I trust that you've seen the motion. We sent it out last week. I'm just going to read it:

That the committee request the Parliamentary Budget Officer prepare research and comparative analysis on the Estimates for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans beginning at least as early as 2015-16 to 2022-23; and that the committee request that this research and analysis be submitted to the committee within 60 days following the adoption of this motion.

Really, the gist of it, folks, is what's typical practice in my office. We meet the PBO, especially in my role as critic—I'm critic for other files—and we just have a little conversation with the PBO. We'd asked some questions about Fisheries and Oceans, in that this comparative analysis had not been done, and I would need to come to committee just to make the request to get them to do their work on it.

I don't think there's anything in there that should be a concern to any of us, other than just having a simple look at what those expenditures are.

I think Ms. Barron had a comment she wanted to make, through the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Ms. Barron, you have your hand up.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Yes. Thank you.

Chair, I have a question for Mr. Zimmer and also an amendment that was sent out. Perhaps I'll ask the question first and then wait for you to let me know when I can speak to the amendment.

I'm curious to know what the next steps would be after this motion. Are we looking for the Parliamentary Budget Officer to appear and speak to the information that's being gathered? What are the next steps that would come?

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I don't believe that's part of the process. This would just be offering us the document of what he comes up with. The PBO is beyond one person—it's a department—but we would just be asking for that document to be provided.

I don't envision him appearing. That could be part of it, but that's not what the motion is asking for.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Basically, it's asking for them to prepare a report based on the motion.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. That's right.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Could I speak to the amendment?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes. The motion has been moved. You can certainly move an amendment.

Go ahead, Madame Desbiens.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I just want to point out that we haven't received the amendment. It would be good to have it in both official languages.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

She's asking about the amendment. She hasn't received it because it hasn't been made yet.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

To clarify, it is my understanding that the amendment has been received by the clerk.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Yes, but she can't distribute it until you move it.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can I move the amendment, please?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

And the amendment is....