Fisheries Committee on May 5th, 2022

[Dr. John Reynolds]

Yes. It does happen that species have different statuses in different parts of the country, especially in such a large and diverse country as ours.

We look for the overall national status. We ask, all things considered, how are they doing? For example, peregrine falcon are doing extremely well in nearly all of the country, but there are certainly some places where they have not recovered from pesticides. Overall, the peregrine falcon, as a species, was deemed by my committee to no longer be at risk of extinction. Therefore, we don't need to be running that through the federal program. There are—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's a great example. In that example, even though it may be endangered in one part, you still did an overall designation.

If I were to bring up elvers—something that I think is before COSEWIC right now—we know they have some challenges in the Great Lakes, and mainly because of hydroelectric dams throughout Quebec and Ontario preventing their migration and spawning routes. In Atlantic Canada, elvers are very healthy.

I've been told by the minister that any consideration of it by COSEWIC has to be done uniformly across the country. Would you say that that's incorrect?

[Dr. John Reynolds]

It is correct. We would be considering all of the separate populations and how they're doing in different places, and then ask overall, how is that species doing on a Canada-wide basis?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay.

[Dr. John Reynolds]

May I add one thing that I should have said?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Please do.

[Dr. John Reynolds]

We consider species below the species level. We can look at subspecies or at genetically distinct populations.

For example, the fish in Atlantic Canada are bound to be genetically distinct, or they may well be genetically distinct, from ones in the Great Lakes. In that case, we would look at those two “subspecies”, we could call them, albeit we actually call them “designatable units”, and assess each of those separately. It's possible for one of them to then be listed for protection under the Species At Risk Act and the other one could be deemed not to be at risk.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you very much. That's very important, because in the study that's ongoing now, that's the distinction I've been trying to make, but the department.... I'm not getting very far on that.

Do you have any idea of the timing and how long this is going to take? There are a lot of commercial businesses at stake in Atlantic Canada.

My understanding is that there will be some elver decisions made by the Food and Drug Administration this year in the United States that are going to allow for the growth and development of the elver business in the U.S. very quickly. We may be left behind if we aren't through the consulting process soon.

[Dr. John Reynolds]

I see. I would have to check with the secretariat, because the spring meeting's going on right now. I can provide that information to the committee after this hearing, if you like. I can see at exactly what stage in the process we are. At any given time, we have about 100 species working their way through our process, so I don't know off-hand.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That would be great. Thank you.

My next question is for Dr. Robert. You mentioned that the quality varies between species, particularly in what you've been used to in Atlantic Canada and the research that's been ongoing. I'd like to talk about a couple of issues.

When you have pelagic fish, obviously, having a full acoustic sounding of the biomass is very helpful. When you do it and what the water temperature is when you do that, or spawning biomass, is very important. There are a number of important species, such as Atlantic mackerel—which we just saw the department close down—that do not have acoustic sounding. The examination of the science over the spawning sampling that DFO's been doing over the last decade has shown that they're actually sampling with water that's at 8°C in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and not at the 10°C to 13°C that's required for spawning. It is underestimating the potential size of the biomass.

Could you comment? Is that one of the areas of species where we are a little short on the quality of the science?

[Dr. Dominique Robert]

You're right. Atlantic mackerel doesn't have an acoustic survey, but given its biology, it's not the best species to consider with acoustics. It doesn't have a swim bladder, so it's not a good acoustic target.

However, the department runs an egg survey. They monitor the number of eggs spawned during the short spawning season in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence. As you mentioned, the spawning can vary a bit from one year to another, depending on the temperature. The survey doesn't vary in time, but there is sampling of the females, as well, to account for and correct the mismatch. I know that the department has explored other potential spawning areas, like the west coast of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

In my view, the survey for the Atlantic mackerel biomass is a good one, compared to many other forage fish stocks. There is uncertainty, but when I read the stock assessment reports, I very much trust the conclusions about its abundance and the fact that the adult mortality component is too high right now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Dr. Robert.

We've gone way over with Mr. Perkins.

We'll go now to Mr. Morrissey for five minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to follow up with Dominique Robert on the same issue, because it's one that's very current today in Atlantic Canada.

Would I be interpreting you correctly that the decision made by the department and the minister as it relates to closing the mackerel fishery was a sound decision and in the best interests of rebuilding the stock?

[Dr. Dominique Robert]

Yes. That's what I've concluded. The stock's level of biomass is very low. The issue is not only with commercial fishing; it's also with the bait fishery, which is not well accounted for in all regions. It's difficult to estimate the mortality through fishing.

This is DFO science. We know that the status of the ecosystem is not very favourable right now for the production of good year classes to replenish the stock. The way to go is to create as much fishing pressure as possible and allow a certain level of biomass to remain. That certain level of biomass, when the conditions get back to something better, will be able to generate some new cohorts.

The decision is good, but it could probably have been made with more planning and, maybe, before this year. I think it came as a surprise to the industry, and it was not a good surprise.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Dr. Robert.

Following up on that, my concern is with the management of the fish stock as it relates to the fishers, workers and communities, because they depend on government—the DFO—getting it right.

How would you recommend to this committee that government bridge the conflict between fish harvesters, local observations and the DFO science?

As you just said, it wasn't well received, but from the independent scientific data you've examined, the department made a prudent decision for the long-term sustainability of the resource that our communities and fishers depend on.

Could you comment?

[Dr. Dominique Robert]

Yes, sure. One of the options that could be considered is a branch for social sciences within the department because, really, sometimes we tend to forget that a fish stock is not just a fish stock. It sometimes represents the vitality and the economy of some communities. Just looking at the numbers and stopping a fishery of course will affect and will impact people.

I'm not a social scientist myself, but there must be ways to prepare communities: for example, perhaps by redesigning the system and allowing people to fish several species, so that when one is doing poorly, perhaps we can have some resilience by exploiting other species that are doing better.

That's a bit of the problem right now in Atlantic Canada. The system is shifting from a cold one to a warm one. Some of the species are disappearing quickly and some others are booming. It's a sort of a regime shift, and this brings some uncertainty for our fishing communities.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Could you comment on how there's been a lot of testimony given about an independent science branch within DFO, and could you present an answer in writing to the committee later? How would you advise the committee that an independent science branch that were only focused on science would then interpret the information from the knowledge base, which is the fishers and indigenous communities and take it into account? How would it work? I know that I don't have time now, but I'd be curious to know if you have an opinion you could provide to the committee on paper.

Thank you, Dr. Robert. Your evidence is fascinating.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with Dr. Robert.

Dr. Robert, you talked about your thesis on fish, particularly herring and mackerel. How long have you been reading about a reduction in the biomass, in the resource?

[Dr. Dominique Robert]

In the case of mackerel, the last strong year class we saw was in 1999, which was the basis of my thesis. Since that time, we have had moderate cohorts. Since the beginning of 2010, there have been only small cohorts. For at least 10 or 12 years, recruitment has been very low and the number of adults has been declining.

In the case of spring herring in the southern gulf, it's been longer. We've seen a decline since the early 2000s. Herring is a species with two spawning stocks, one in the spring and one in the fall. Often warm periods are unfavourable for spring herring, not surprisingly.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Tell me, has your thesis been submitted? Was it considered by the department 10 years ago, or when you completed it?

[Dr. Dominique Robert]

This goes back a few years. My research was fundamental and aimed at understanding the link between larval growth and survival. We now know that the strong cohorts really emerge at the larval stage. These are the factors that favour or disadvantage larval survival and really affect the stocks that can be fished four to five years later.

Right now, the conditions for recruitment in the southern gulf are not there for mackerel, but the system is very variable. We can hope that the stock will be able to come back, but we have to take care of it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

My time is up, isn't it, Mr. Chair?

I have enough questions for the whole afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. There is only seven seconds left in your time.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Before I ask my first question, I want to clarify, is it Ms. Moran or Dr. Moran? I want to make sure I'm using the right title.