Fisheries Committee on June 14th, 2022

[Christopher Jones]

Yes. I'll try to be brief.

The past experience of compensation came from a different source. The most notable is northern cod, where the fishery was essentially closed for some 30,000 people. In this instance, there was an unexpected notification. I think the fact that there wasn't a lot of dialogue between the department, science, management and the industry caused a lot of unexpected angst within communities.

Once one sets the precedent of compensation, the response for compensation can be in many forms. It can be in the form of science commitments or other alternatives. It has many aspects. That has yet to be worked out.

That also applies in instances of marine protected areas, where fishermen are now being shut down. They're looking for compensation and the department is telling them that there's no mandate to provide that.

It's a bigger issue and it's one that I would expect needs to have a dialogue on. It's become a political issue. I hate to turn it back to you, but I think that's where we are on it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Jones.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I was hoping to ask a few of our witnesses today a similar question.

Mr. Young, you wrote a sixth recommendation in your submission—you spoke about it as well—about the restructuring of DFO where necessary to support these changes and to remove conflicts of interest. I'm wondering if you could expand on that a bit and what that might look like. What would you recommend?

[Jeffery Young]

It's a complex topic, but I'll give some high-level overview.

We need to separate science adequately and ensure that science advice is being presented in a clean and unbiased format publicly and directly to the minister. We need to ensure that science advice and recommendations are delivered to the minister without interference.

Ultimately, there are many different ways we could do this. We used to have the Fisheries Research Board of Canada, which was more distinct scientifically than the management itself. That is a model we could explore.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Could I ask the same question to Mr. Sean Jones, please?

[Sean Jones]

I would echo the comments of my fellow witnesses. I think that DFO managers need to allow scientists to communicate directly with those decision-makers and allow the briefing notes and materials that they prepare to go unadulterated to the minister.

We've documented numerous examples where scientists are trying to get critical information to the minister, but DFO managers simply interfere and rewrite the materials, so that the science that is presented is done in a way that confirms existing policy, rather than presenting the minister with the best available information.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Jones.

I want to see if I can also get a comment from Mr. Trites in my two and a half minutes. It's overly optimistic, I realize.

[Dr. Andrew Trites]

Thank you.

I think there's often a disconnect between science and management. Science is a bottom-up process. Management seems to be top-down. I feel that, in many cases, the two are not talking together. It would be a much better process if the managers built relationships with the scientists, and then the scientists would have a better understanding of what the questions are.

The way I observe it, on the outside, is that there's a disconnect between science and management.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Young.

Mr. Young, do you eat fish?

[Jeffery Young]

Yes, I do.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you see our oceans as having a role in supplying healthy, organic protein to the world?

[Jeffery Young]

Yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you know the difference in the productivity of Norway's ocean versus Canada's ocean, per square mile?

[Jeffery Young]

No.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

The figure is that it's 7.5 times more productive per square mile.

I heard you say in your opening remarks that harvesting seals would have no impact on restoring the productivity of our ocean and bringing back balance. We've been managing our ocean for quite a long time already. This wouldn't be the beginning of managing our ocean.

If harvesting pinnipeds can't help restore fish stocks, I have another question. If the seal population doubled or tripled, what would they eat? Would that have an impact on the fish stocks?

[Jeffery Young]

My answer is simply that these systems are highly complex. Salmon predate on numerous species, some of which are both competitors and predators of target species, and the ability to predict what would happen in that instance is very difficult to do.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

If there were a continued population explosion, if the population continued on the trajectory that we have, would that have an impact on fish stocks, do you think?

[Jeffery Young]

It would be an alteration of the ecosystem. I think it's hard to predict whether something like that is going to happen and, if it did, what it would do to the broader ecosystem.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I think you agree that it would consume a lot of fish.

If we brought that population down through sustainable ethical means, we'd be able to supply more healthy organic protein to the world, wouldn't you think?

[Jeffery Young]

No, I don't think that's clear. I think that we don't actually know (a) whether we're capable of effectively reducing those populations to a level that would make a difference that we want to have, nor that we understand well enough whether the difference that would create is one that we would want.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Am I allowed to ask someone if they've been careless with the truth, like my father would say?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Your five minutes are yours. Again, choose your language.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I have a question for Mr. Young about an email that went around to all MPs stating that Bill C-251 was asking for a cull. Can you tell us which clause in that bill is asking for a cull?