Fisheries Committee on Oct. 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Ms. Bérubé, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. McPherson, one line of recommendation is that sufficient resources should be allocated to assess stocks in a timely manner. Do you know if that means using government resources, private resources, or even fishers to collect the data? How should this be arranged in practical terms?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

Thank you for the question.

I would say that the types of analyses and questions or stock assessments that are being asked of biologists and researchers are becoming more and more complex. My previous answer spoke to some of the climate change impacts and ecosystem considerations that we're working into the analyses that we undertake. The question really, at its core, is what the information that we need to inform decision-making is, and how we can best generate that information.

A key consideration of that is to ask what partners can do. How can we leverage relationships with indigenous communities, with non-governmental groups and with industry to collect data and to interpret results with us? Sometimes funding isn't the answer. Sometimes it's actually time that we need to generate a data series, a time series, or to finish research projects.

There isn't a single answer that I could offer, other than to say that these are the types of questions that we would need to pursue.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In light of what you have just said, do you think it would be advisable for the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to also make ongoing use of external scientific experts?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

We actually make use of external experts already. In all of our science advisory processes that we undertook last year to generate science advice and a science advisory report, we had external experts there. It's incredibly important that we have them at the table.

We could make use of that more. We have a number of very healthy and very positive collaborations internationally and domestically with fisheries organizations, international fisheries organizations. It's something that we think is incredibly important to ensure that we're able to learn from them and they're able to learn from us.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

In your opinion, do you think the department has all the necessary means, human resources and material resources to help you do your job well?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

Certainly, it is important to set priorities and to understand how the work we do in science can be used to inform fisheries decision-making and decision-making in other parts of our mandate—marine conservation, for example. We have maybe 2,200 staff across the country who are working in different parts of the science work that we do. Fishery science is our largest science program within DFO, but as I said, there are a number of questions that we would need to ask and really think about in order to be able to answer your question.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Do you need more funding to support your activities?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

Again, I'll come back to how our work is very much driven by what management needs in order to inform decision-making. As those needs change, as that mandate changes and as the time frame within which they'd like an answer changes, that all drives the resources needed. As I said, also, sometimes money isn't the issue. Sometimes it's time to conclude the research that we already have under way.

[Sylvie Bérubé, Bloc, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Is DFO also suffering from a labour shortage?

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

I would say that certainly in the science sector we've seen a transition of our workforce. We're now younger. We have more women than we've ever had before in the workforce. We are looking to hire from universities to leverage the academic partnerships we have with Canadian and international institutions to make sure that we have the best possible biologists, technicians and engineers at our disposal to provide advice.

Is it challenging to do so? We're very fortunate that we have been able to find a lot of people who are very talented and want to work at DFO science.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Bérubé.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I have so many questions. I'm trying to identify the main ones here.

I'm happy that we've had an opportunity to loop back and follow up on some of the items that have come up over the length of this study. As a side note, I do want to commend the many scientists who are working very hard within DFO. I'm very happy to hear that we're seeing an increase in women being hired and taking their place within the organization.

I'm wondering if you could share whether there is a wild salmon management division within DFO or any division that focuses specifically on wild salmon.

[Dr. Arran McPherson]

Rebecca, am I able to turn that over to you?

[Rebecca Reid]

Absolutely.

Thank you for the question. The way we're organized in the Pacific region is that we have a regional director of fisheries management, Neil Davis. He has responsibilities for salmon management. We also have a Pacific salmon strategy initiative, which is a direct report into the deputy minister but sitting in the Pacific region. Wes Shoemaker is the lead for that. Sarah Murdoch is representing that part of the organization today.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

What else is within the fisheries management role that is composed with the salmon fisheries? You said it's under that role. What else is that manager responsible for?

[Rebecca Reid]

The regional director is responsible for the management of all fisheries in the Pacific region. He also has the responsibility for aquaculture. In addition, small craft harbours is under that organization.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Have any concerns been brought to you or have you been seeing any potential conflicts between the same manager being in charge of aquaculture and wild salmon?

[Rebecca Reid]

I mean, I certainly have heard criticism by members of the public and questions about that. My view is that we understand our role and responsibility for the management of wild salmon and the management of aquaculture, and we do it appropriately.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Is there any discussion around doing a separation of the roles to ensure that wild salmon is getting the advocacy and the voices and the attention it deserves with our dwindling population of this vital species?

[Rebecca Reid]

One of the key changes that has taken place over the past couple of years is the creation of the Pacific salmon strategy initiative. You have a separate group within the organization leading the changes needed for salmon protection overall. That program, which has $647 million over five years, is leading some very fundamental changes in a number of different ways to support wild Pacific salmon.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Can you remind me how much of that $647 million has been used to date on the Pacific salmon initiative?

[Rebecca Reid]

I don't have those numbers available. Sarah may be able to respond briefly, but it may be something we need to get back to you on.

If you don't mind my turning to Sarah, she might be able to respond.

[Sarah Murdoch]

I think we actually provided that information previously to the committee, but I apologize that I don't have that readily available. Last year was our first ramp-up year. We received full approvals partway through the year, and we're into our year two. We can certainly get back to the committee with that information.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you. I do recall it coming forward before, and my recollection was that there are still lots of funds remaining that have not been utilized within this initiative. I questioned the structure that's currently in place to ensure wild salmon are prioritized.

We know there's a link between open-net pen fish farms and the pollution from those farms causing impacts on wild salmon. To have one manager who is considering both of those conflicting variables is very problematic, and I'm hearing from many constituents that they would like to see that addressed. I wanted to highlight the concerns that are being brought to me around that.

I wanted to bring it back a little bit, as we've gone through many witnesses since we first began this study. I'm wondering how participants in the CSAS process are selected. To clarify for anybody who may not know, CSAS is the Canadian science advisory secretariat.