Fisheries Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Welcome to meeting number 35 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. There is interpretation. For those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. Please address all comments through the chair. Finally, I remind everyone that taking screenshots or photos of your screen is not permitted. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 20, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the North Atlantic right whale. For the first hour and a half, we will hear from witnesses for this study. We will then use the last half-hour of the meeting for committee business in camera.

I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses.

Representing the Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels are Jean Lanteigne, director general; and Martin Noël, president of the Association des pêcheurs professionnels crabiers acadiens. Representing Fish, Food and Allied Workers-Unifor is Mr. Keith Sullivan, president. Finally, representing Grand Manan Fishermen's Association, is Bonnie Morse, project manager.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

I will invite Mr. Lanteigne and Mr. Noël to begin.

When you're ready, please go ahead. You have five minutes or less.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Chair, on a point of order.

I just want to make sure that all the technical checks have been made for the interpreters.

Has everyone done a sound check with their headset?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

To my knowledge, those were done before we got here. The clerk said it was okay to start. Obviously the sound checks have been done.

We'll continue now with the opening statement, as requested.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Great.

Thank you.

[Jean Lanteigne, Director General, Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels]

Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the committee, hello.

In order to make the most of my speaking time, I will just dive in straight away.

Since 2017, the presence of right whales in the gulf has been front and centre for all of the stakeholders [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Technical difficulty—Editor] the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, the DFO, set a closure date of June 30. Before, it was July 15. The fishing season was thus shortened by 15 days. That meant that fishermen had to catch their quota as quickly as possible.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am sorry to interrupt the witness.

I would ask him to start over, because we did not hear the start of his presentation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Lanteigne, could you start from the top again? For a while it seemed as if you were muted or something was wrong with the mike. We weren't picking up any sound at all. Just so the members can hear your full statement, we'll start the timer again.

Thank you.

[Jean Lanteigne]

As I said, in order to make the most of my speaking time, I will just dive in straight away.

Since 2017, the presence of right whales in the gulf has been front and centre for all of the stakeholders who are in any way involved in the fishing industry in Atlantic Canada. The snow crab fishery is without a doubt the worst hit.

Today, I would like to call your attention to the issue of safety at sea.

Let me begin by reminding you that in 2018, the DFO set a closure date of June 30. The fishing season was thus shortened by 15 days. That meant that fishermen had to catch their quota as quickly as possible.

On top of this huge loss in terms of fishing time, we also have to maximize the number of days during which we can fish before the right whales arrive.

This forces the entire industry to work like mad in order to start fishing as quickly as possible in the spring. It becomes a risky business, and I will explain why.

Even though everyone is talking about climate change, winter in the Gulf of St. Lawrence remains a difficult and hazardous season. Since 2018, a lot of effort has gone into breaking up the ice in channels and ports as well as getting the fleets into the water, which costs a lot of money, requires tremendous effort and involves big risks. The Coast Guard, the fishing ports, the boat warehouses and all kinds of private businesses, including the processing plants, get to work so that fishing may start as quickly as possible. All this goes on in winter conditions.

This year, our fishing season started on April 13. It was a pretty good date, and you will no doubt agree with me when I say that in the end, Mother Nature is the one who decides when the fishing season starts.

Some people and organizations would like a fixed date, so that the fishermen who are able to get out to sea can do so. We are firmly against this approach. We have set up a committee on season openings, which includes all fishery stakeholders, such as the DFO, the Canadian Coast Guard and Environment Canada. We think that this is the best way to ensure a safe start to fishing for everyone. Otherwise, the risk of loss of life is much too high.

I will now turn over to the president of the Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels.

Thank you.

[Martin Noël, President, Association des pêcheurs professionnels crabiers acadiens, Fédération régionale acadienne des pêcheurs professionnels]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to your meeting.

My name is Martin Noël. I am a snow crab fisherman from Shippagan, New Brunswick. I am a boat captain and the owner of a family business spanning three generations of fishermen.

New measures were imposed on the industry in 2018, such as the static closure of teeming fishing zones as well as a dynamic closure as soon as whales are spotted. The measures have evolved so that there are no more static closures. The dynamic closures are now temporary and seasonal.

Even though the industry has welcomed these changes, we believe that it is possible to fine-tune and improve them in order to reduce the impact on our fisheries, while still increasing the protection given to the right whales. We have already proposed that seasonal closures only start in June and that acoustic buoys be used to reopen closed zones.

For the third year now, traditional crabber associations in New Brunswick are testing on demand buoy technology, also known as ropeless fishing, out at sea. We are very proud of the progress that we have made. There is still room for improvement, but fishermen are getting on board more and more. Certain non-governmental organizations, or NGOs, are saying that we are world leaders in this field.

We are working closely with the Campobello whale rescue team to set up and train a disentanglement team for the gulf, which would rescue entangled whales. We are also involved in projects that aim to find lost or ghost fishing gear.

In terms of the requirement to modify fishing gear, including modifications effective as of January 2023, I have to say that we have concerns. The aim is to reduce the length and the severity of potential entanglements. Tests have been done at sea over the past few years which have allowed us to retain certain methods and reject others, but it is still not possible to determine which methods are the most efficient for achieving our goal.

Let's not forget that the solution has to be safe for our crew members and the work they do. If we are required to modify our equipment and that in turn reduces safety on board fishing vessels or increases the loss of pots at sea, which creates more ghost fishing gear, we are clearly off course and not meeting all the objectives.

Collaboration is key on this important issue. There has been unparalleled collaboration between NGOs, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the fishing industry. Progress would be impossible without this cooperation. The financial support given by the Government of Canada and New Brunswick is also crucial to enable us to adapt.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Sullivan for five minutes or less, please.

[Keith Sullivan, President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor]

Thank you. I hope you're hearing me well.

On behalf of 13,000 members from Newfoundland and Labrador, thank you for the opportunity to speak to the members today.

The Fish, Food and Allied Workers union represents 10,000 professional fish harvesters in our province and many more workers in processing. The FFAW appreciates the need to protect endangered right whales. We have long been dedicated to sustainability and contribute to a wide variety of science and conservation, including ghost gear removal and work with SARA-listed species such as wolffish and turtles.

However, there's been practically no engagement from DFO with harvesters in Newfoundland and Labrador on this topic. In many ways, it's not surprising, because it's extremely uncommon to see these whales, and especially not overlapping with our snow crab and lobster fishing.

There's simply no evidence of entanglements in decades to merit encumbrances on Newfoundland and Labrador harvesters, which appear to be designed for other fisheries in other environments. Harvesters in Newfoundland and Labrador were upset to see the Seafood Watch red listing and their disregard for recognizing the differences in regional fisheries.

Wayne Ledwell, of the Whales Release and Strandings Group, was interviewed on September 20 for a CBC broadcast. He describes sightings of right whales as “sporadic” and remarked that he does not believe that Newfoundland and Labrador waters are the right habitat for the animals. Ledwell acknowledges that fishing gear in Newfoundland waters poses little risk of entanglement, specifically in fixed-gear fisheries such as snow crab, lobster and gillnet fisheries.

Snow crab from this province is certified by the world's most recognized seafood sustainability standard: the Marine Stewardship Council.

The value of lobster to harvesters in this province continues to grow. Over the last 10 years, the value of our lobster harvest increased from $17 million to more than $100 million annually.

FFAW members took on the work and cost to implement coloured rope schemes, despite the lack of right whales in their waters during fisheries.

DFO has not meaningfully engaged harvesters in Newfoundland and Labrador on these issues and refuses to acknowledge input from experienced, knowledgeable harvesters. In 2021, DFO held three virtual meetings in a feeble effort to consult with over 3,000 fishing enterprises that could be affected by this new policy. The meetings were two and a half hours long, with 40 minutes of discussion following a presentation by DFO, and they cannot be considered a method of proper stakeholder consultation.

FFAW raised the question with DFO of why B.C. or Nunavut do not have to implement this if they also have endangered species in their waters. DFO's response was that there's no proof of gear entanglements of the endangered species in these waters. Ultimately, what is being proposed as a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist in Newfoundland and Labrador is deeply flawed.

First, it is significantly more likely to lead to increased entanglements of other marine mammals that are prevalent in our waters, due to more vertical lines through the water column. Fisheries around Newfoundland and Labrador use gear in long fleets, thus minimizing the vertical lines in the water. For example, a harvester may have 70 snow crab traps in a fleet that has only two vertical lines. Clearly, moving to 20 vertical lines for the same gear is a move in the wrong direction for preventing entanglements.

Second, it will cause significant environmental disaster for ghost gear, because it is not possible to harvest in the depths of water with this weakened rope. Ghost gear is difficult to remove, and preventing it must be the priority. More ghost gear will further increase the likelihood of entangling marine mammals and other species. This directly conflicts with DFO's ghost gear fund goals. Since its launch in 2019, government has invested $16.7 million in the program and, as a participant, FFAW has removed 16 tonnes of ghost gear from our waters. The very purpose of the program is to retrieve abandoned, lost and discarded fishing gear and encourage marine sustainability.

Third, there are serious safety concerns due to lack of practical testing in our marine environment. DFO has provided no evidence that this gear is safe or effective for the fishery. They have provided no evidence that the gear has been fully tested and would hold up to North Atlantic tides, ice conditions and the heavy strains in deep water. In the absence of this evidence to show that gear can withstand these conditions, we can confidently say that a large amount of gear and rope will be deposited right back into the ocean.

Harvesters in Newfoundland and Labrador are supportive of protecting whales, but can't support changes in management that are likely to do the exact opposite, including causing significant amounts of ghost gear, increasing cost to harvesters and their families, and creating safety concerns in an already extremely dangerous work environment.

Thank you. I look forward to the questions and conversation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

We will now go to Ms. Morse for five minutes or less, please.

[Bonnie Morse, Project Manager, Grand Manan Fishermen's Association]

Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to present today.

The Grand Manan Fishermen's Association represents independent owner-operator fishermen on Grand Manan and White Head Island in the Bay of Fundy. Our approximately 200 members fish lobster, scallop, groundfish and herring. The landed value of these fisheries averages over $75 million annually, and it is a major employer for our isolated community of 2,600 people.

Charlotte County as a whole represents 30% of the provincial landings in New Brunswick, and one in five jobs in this county are in the seafood sector. There were just over 400 fishing companies in the county in the 2016 census, and almost half of those were based on Grand Manan and White Head Island.

For generations our fishermen have been coexisting with North Atlantic right whales. We have worked collaboratively with researchers with and without government involvement to do the right thing. Fishermen understand that right whales and all marine mammals have a place in the ecosystem, and a healthy ecosystem ensures their longevity as much as it does that of the animals that live there. We have taken measures that have provided real protection but haven't always been quantifiable in a government report. Fishermen believed in the process and actively engaged and participated.

Our biggest asset is the timing of our lobster fishery. Our lobster season opens next month in November, and it runs until the end of June. The recovery strategy for North Atlantic right whales states that the Grand Manan Basin is critical habitat, but only in late summer and early fall so if there is any overlap it's relatively minimal.

In 2018, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans arbitrarily closed a portion of our lobster district after a single sighting of a single right whale in June. Local fishermen and scientists have long understood that a single sighting early in spring does not necessarily herald the arrival of right whales into the bay. With rare exceptions, a single right whale will arrive in the bay seeming to scout for food. Unless there is feed, it quickly moves on. We believe that 10-day closure cost our community over a million dollars in landings.

While there is a monetary cost, there was also a social cost. There is now reluctance by fishermen to report any sighting of any whale for fear of the repercussions.

After the closure, the GMFA submitted a pilot project to the department that essentially had a sliding scale of measures based on risk. Those measures reduced end lines, rope at the surface of the water, and included a section of weaker rope in the end lines. A single sighting of a single whale would result in measures to reduce rope, but would still allow continued fishing. Subsequent sightings would mean additional measures. This project was used once since 2018 when a right whale was seen the week before our season, which only highlights how rarely our season overlaps with right whales' presence. Despite that, this pilot project was cancelled this winter because it was inconsistent with other measures.

Heading into this season we are faced with the uncertainty of potential closures. We are concerned because there is not scientific evidence to support a 15-day closure based on a single sighting. The impact of a closure, particularly in the fall, can be devastating. Lost fishing days cannot be recuperated as weather deteriorates and lobster movements reduce during colder weather. We know that during that time right whales are heading south and do not stay in the Bay of Fundy.

We estimate that well over half of our landings happen in the first few weeks of the season. Not fishing because there was a single sighting of a transiting right whale is unbearable. Not fishing when there are no right whales because of an arbitrary measure is unacceptable. The economic hardship of these arbitrary measures are being borne by individuals and rural coastal communities like mine.

Our membership is disenfranchised with the process mainly because, despite having an abundance of right whales in the Bay of Fundy up until the past decade, there has never been a known entanglement of a right whale in LFA 38 lobster gear.

The plight of North Atlantic right whales is a real problem that needs real solutions, not only those that are easy to communicate. There is a vast difference in fisheries across Atlantic Canada. It is highly improbable that there is going to be any one cookie-cutter approach that will work for everyone. Solutions will only be found if there is a willingness to listen.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to our rounds of questioning.

I will remind members to direct their questions to whomever they want to answer them. It will make it easier and your time will be better used.

We'll first go to Mr. Perkins for six minutes or less, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question would be for Mr. Sullivan and Ms. Morse.

In our first meeting for the study that Mr. Cormier proposed, officials were asked about how many entanglements over the last five years with lobster and crab gear were recorded in Canadian waters. The response was that there was only one in crab gear and that the largest category for causes of death of right whales in the waters—particularly in the two-year period where there were 12 deaths—was undetermined by the necropsies. The whales were too decomposed.

I'll start with Mr. Sullivan first.

You say that you don't see right whales that much during fishing season. As a result, I suspect also you've been dealing with fishermen who have been experimenting with the weak rope—the breakable rope. Can you share with me what the results of that are, from your experience with the fishermen who have been testing that gear?

[Keith Sullivan]

I'll start off by saying that the conversation and consultation with those in Newfoundland and Labrador has been minimal. This was a real active problem for those fishing in other areas previously, certainly in the Bay of Fundy and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. We hadn't had these sightings.

I don't really believe the effort has been done by DFO to engage in Newfoundland and Labrador. It was obvious that weak rope in some of our fisheries was completely asinine and unsafe. It was clearly not an option and it would lead to more problems. There was huge reluctance to engage in some of this work. There was no engagement by DFO to really solve the problem.

The information I have on initial testing, particularly around crab gear—which I suppose we would be more concerned about due to water depths—is that it has predictably not worked very well, generally speaking. I would say that, in the deeper waters of Newfoundland and Labrador, we can expect that to be probably worse than most of the areas that have been tested.

I'll leave it there and give the time to others.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I have to interrupt you, Mr. Perkins. I know you're not here in the room, but the lights are flashing and a vote has been called.

I would ask the committee if we have permission to continue. When there's between five and 10 minutes left, if we're all in agreement, we'll use our devices to vote instead of leaving the room.

We'll continue on for another 15 or so minutes with the testimony. I'll stop it when I think we need that much time to sign in and get our faces identified on our cameras.

Continue, Mr. Perkins, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

The experience of lobster fishermen that I spoke with in LFA 34 who were testing the weak rope gear in the summer, which is of course not when we fish in LFA 34—it's in the winter—was that almost all of it broke when hauling traps. It caused a lot of ghost gear and doesn't actually work that well, let alone in difficult winter situations.

Monsieur Lanteigne and Monsieur Noël, you spoke of your experience where you seemed to say it worked.

Can you speak to that or have you been mainly experimenting with the ropeless gear? If that's the case, what is the cost of that gear?

[Martin Noël]

Thank you for your question.

I'll talk a bit about the buoyless ropeless fishing gear we've been testing for three years.

It's a new acoustics-based technology, so obviously there's a cost attached to it. Each unit costs roughly $5,000. The harvesters who did the testing had five units, so the total cost was around $25,000.

Traps were attached to the unit to catch the crab. To reduce costs, we went from fishing with a single trap, or pot, to fishing with a number of pots connected to a unit. We were able to gain some experience that way, go through the learning curve and come up with a new harvesting method. It obviously costs a whole lot more than harvesting the traditional way, but it gives us the ability to fish in areas that would otherwise be off limits for the protection of right whales.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Perhaps I could ask one quick follow-up. I believe before the 2018 changes were made in the gulf, the crab fishery was starting in May, I think. One of the government policies was to allow you to start the season earlier and send boats out into icier waters. There was a commitment made by DFO at the time that the Coast Guard would always be present.

To my understanding, in the last couple of years the Coast Guard hasn't actually always been present when the crab season has been launched in the gulf during a very icy season. Is that correct?

[Jean Lanteigne]

What went on before 2018 was that the Coast Guard was always there with icebreakers to free up ports, mainly, to make the fishery zone accessible. With the fact of the presence of right whales, you try to fish as early as possible, before the right whales arrive, placing extra pressure—a lot of pressure, actually—on everybody in the industry. That starts with the Coast Guard trying to clear off the channels to make sure the fishing territory becomes accessible.

I would say there's a difference between having protection on the water and having the channel cleared. The Coast Guard, as you know, has some equipment in different locations within the gulf to make sure that we have a safe fishery. It is possible that, in some fishing seasons, it did arrive that the Coast Guard was not necessarily available at each location, but I would add that, with this opening committee that we have, everybody's at the table. I can assure you that every effort is made by everybody, especially DFO and the Coast Guard, to make sure that we have a safe fishery.

That's why we say that we want to meet with that committee—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Lanteigne. The time has gone way over on the allotted time for Mr. Perkins.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

I want to start by commending all of you on the tremendous efforts you have been making since 2017 to protect right whales. Despite what some environmental groups may say, you have set the standard, and I think you should be recognized internationally for your efforts.

I'll start with Mr. Lanteigne and Mr. Noël. I want to talk safety, and I'm going to follow up on what Mr. Perkins said.

Over the past five years, perhaps more so during the last two, my fellow members have noticed that the Gulf of St. Lawrence was closed almost the entire season starting at the end of May, or just before, because right whales were in the area. DFO reported that over 90% of the quota had still been caught. You brought up security, and that plays a very important role in all this.

First, do you think dynamic fishery closures work?

Second, what changes can be made to dynamic closures to provide greater access to certain areas and ensure that safety is the top priority? We of course want to save right whales, but as we know, moving traps can cause incidents, as we saw this year.

What changes would you recommend to dynamic closure management without affecting the market? As we've seen, changes have been made over the past five years.

What do you recommend?

[Martin Noël]

As I mentioned earlier, we think it's possible to change and improve the closure measures.

Two types of dynamic closures exist. When a right whale is spotted, a temporary closure is put in place. If another right whale is spotted on day nine or 15 of the closure, the fishery is closed for the season.

Although that approach protects right whales, it's problematic. In May, when the whales arrive in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, they are transiting, heading for areas where they can feed. The approach being used, however, doesn't take that into account. An area is automatically closed as soon as a right whale is spotted, but since the whale is transiting, it may no longer be in the area the next day. Regardless, the area has been closed for the season, so until the end of the season, right up to November. As a result, areas where the fishing is good are off limits to harvesters, despite the fact that right whales are no longer present.

In our view, the approach can be adjusted to take that into account.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Noël, as you know, aircraft and buoys are used to detect right whales. If sonobuoys detect right whales within a 40‑kilometre radius, say, the area is closed. Those same tools, buoys and aircraft, could be used to monitor the whales and determine whether the area should remain closed or be reopened.

Do you see that as an option?