Fisheries Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here with us, Mr. Cormier. I would also like to thank you for the work you have done in recent years to develop these new ropeless trap and low-breaking-strength rope technologies.

My first question relates to ropeless traps, which have been tested in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in the last two or three years. I would like you to repeat, for my colleagues, how many crab have been caught in these ropeless traps. I think you said it was 230 metric tonnes. Is that right?

[Philippe Cormier]

It was 230 metric tonnes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I would like to make sure that my colleagues have a clear understanding of the situation. The traps were used in areas that were closed because whales were there, and they were used by the Acadian Peninsula crab fishing fleet.

I am sure there were small hurdles here and there, but has it worked well so far? Were the traps able to activate the mechanism, on the bottom, that lets the rope rise to the surface and lets the fisher catch the buoy?

[Philippe Cormier]

As you say, we have been testing these technologies since 2018. We have tested systems from various companies. This year, as I said, 20 of our fishers used them in areas that were closed.

It went relatively well from the technology point of view, and we had a 96 per cent success rate and raised 677 traps, if I am not mistaken. However, if we take into account problems with tangled ropes or human error, the success rate falls to 87 per cent. As I said, there is a lot of work still to be done, but the technology, at least, the triggering mechanism itself, is relatively reliable.

I have just attended the Ropeless Consortium annual meeting that was held in New Bedford, at which this point came up frequently. We have to equip these systems with artificial intelligence to avoid human or other errors.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

When these human or technological errors occurred, were you still able to locate the trap and get it out of the water?

[Philippe Cormier]

Yes. The gear used for ropeless fishing is relatively expensive. To reduce the costs, the fishers decided to use trawl nets and put ten traps in each one, on average.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

On that subject, we have heard a lot of witnesses say that it could not work, but the ropeless system you use lets you put more than one trap in a row on the sea bottom and see where they all are. The fishers were afraid of piling their traps on top of each other, but, if I understand correctly, the technology lets them see where the other fishers' traps already are, is that right?

[Philippe Cormier]

Yes, the technology exists. We have an app that shows us where our traps are on the sea bottom. When I get to an area where there are other traps less than three nautical miles away, which is the distance at which a fisher can normally see another fisher's buoys, the other fishers' nets and the ropeless systems appear on the app. Everyone can see it.

However, we observed that the precision of the system needed to be improved. We have had a lot of talks with the manufacturers. The communication systems also have to be improved, because there is no cell network in the Gulf, and so fishers have to rely on their satellite communication system.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't have a lot of time left, so I am going to ask you a question about low-breaking-strength rope and I would like you to answer just yes or no.

Are the tests you have done on this conclusive enough to determine that this technology can be used immediately, without it having devastating effects on whale protection? Should we wait a bit?

[Philippe Cormier]

The results are absolutely not conclusive. There is still a lot of testing to be done on that.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Right.

Okay. That's perfect.

For my colleagues around the table, maybe you have heard that NOAA and DFO, I think, provide a one-year extension to foreign countries to review the comparability findings for their commercial fishery, so I think this gives us a little bit more time to prepare for some of the new gear that was supposed to be, I can say, mandatory for next year. I think we should look into that. What does it mean if weak rope is part of that?

I'm going to end there, Mr. Chair, because I think my time is done. Is that right?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

It is, sir. You've gone a little bit over.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less. I was skipping over the two ladies that time. I apologize for that.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chidley, after you sent your letter to Fisheries and Oceans Canada in November, did you hear anything back from the department? Did the department ask to meet with you? Were you consulted?

[Gerard Chidley]

No. The only conversations I've seen were when discussions were still being had here at the House. I sent the email to Mr. Small, got the contact points and said, “Listen, this is important. I should make an appearance in person.” As we're finished for the season, it was a timely thing.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you think you could adapt to the solutions proposed by Mr. Cormier, given the conditions in which you fish? Do you think this could be achieved before the end of 2023?

[Gerard Chidley]

I think the difference is that the Gulf of St. Lawrence fishing area is a lot different from the one we're in. We're into the one-knot to three-knot currents the whole time. We try to use the rule of thumb of 5% greater than the bottom deck. That's the maximum slack we'll have on our fishing gear, with lead rope interwoven about every 25 fathoms apart. That kit takes the slack off the surface. It puts out less rope but still allows you to retrieve the gear.

I think slack rope on the water is a bigger issue than anything else, for whales of any type. However, I don't think this is a one-size-fits-all or one-shoe-fits-all approach. What will work, where there are incidents of sightings.... If a right whale is in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, I think this system they're setting up has potential. However, in our area, there are no sightings or occurrences whatsoever in the deep water. We haven't seen them. I have had 50 years on the ocean and have never seen a right whale yet. That says a lot.

They should continue with their work in the gulf. If it's an extension they need for operating out there, by all means develop the gear and make sure it can work. If there is something that allows fishers increased activity in a now-enclosed area, by all means. They're going to jump to do everything possible to get in there.

Good luck with the development. I look forward to seeing how it will work in the gulf.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Cormier, do you think it is achievable and realistic, even with the deadline postponed, to manage to do all your tests, get all the necessary gear, and computerize all the fishers' gear?

[Philippe Cormier]

I certainly think it is possible. However, I believe we have to take the time it needs. Rushing things won't help develop this technology. We have to follow the steps and the scientific methods.

Most importantly, we have to work with the fishers. If we want them to sign on, they have to be involved from start to finish, both in the testing and in developing these technologies.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Listening to you, we can see that you have put an absolutely fantastic system in place. Do you think enough promotion is being done about efforts like yours, that are intended to save the foreign market and evaluate the exercise?

[Philippe Cormier]

No, I share Mr. Chidley's opinion: more promotion could be done for this.

As I said in my presentation, our tests have generated a lot of interest both inside and outside Canada, but we can do better.

American companies like Publix, the major grocery chain, have used the advertising videos we have produced in recent years about snow crab, to inform the public about how the snow crab population in Canada is fished ecoresponsibly. This is a great example of positive visibility, but I think there could be more involvement in this, from whatever quarter.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. You're right on the mark.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. Welcome, in person, as well to Mr. Chidley.

My first question is for Mr. Chidley. You spoke about the safety concerns relating to the whalesafe gear that's being used. I'm wondering if you could expand on that and perhaps provide a few examples of what you're seeing on the water. What should we be considering in our recommendations to address these safety issues?

[Gerard Chidley]

Yes, certainly. Thank you for the question.

The big issue when we're fishing offshore, in any fishery we're involved in, is that the rope strength has to be of sufficient breaking strain that we're not going to part the rope when it's in the hauler under normal working circumstances. The difference is that when the first pot is leaving the bottom, the weight is not so great, but when the last pot is leaving the bottom and the first one is at the rail, we have sometimes five or seven, depending on the depth of the water, that are coming through the water at the one time. Most of those pots, just under normal weight circumstances.... The pot itself that we use is 40 pounds. If there are 100 pounds of crab in it, with the drag coming up through the water, we don't have to cut it, but if we touch that with a knife, there's a zing. It's just like a guitar string. If that rope parts at a critical time, our crew member handling that could end up with severe lacerations to the hands, the face or anything else. That's the big issue.

That's why we have a tendency to knock off fishing when the sea reaches five metres, because we know gear will part when the seas are between five and six metres. We stop at five metres. We're talking about a sea state of 16 or 17 feet. Because we're at sea for multiple days and our vessels are larger, that's what....

I just have a comment. One of the things that Mr. Cormier said was about developing gear. In that development, you have to look at the cost, because in lots of cases around Newfoundland and Labrador, lots of guys only have a 10,000-pound crab quota. It's probably out of reach for that type of a fishery, whereas in the gulf, the guys like us probably have 100 or 200 tonnes of crab to catch on an individual basis. The economics are totally different when it means investing in that type of gear.

I'm sorry I got away from your question. The constraints that we find ourselves under in this environment are just in addition to the work we're doing.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

No, it's all very helpful, especially because we're in the last stage of the study. It helps to formulate the recommendations and bring everything together. I'm happy with any additional information.

I'm curious if you can provide some perspective. I appreciate that after 50 years out on the water, which is great, you're here and sharing with us your wealth of experience. Over those 50 years, I believe you said—correct me if I'm wrong—that you've never seen a North Atlantic right whale in the waters.

We're also seeing, as a result of the climate crisis and, of course, human-made activity, some changes or a shifting in behaviours, and so there is a potential that we may see North Atlantic right whales. I definitely can't speculate as to whether or not you will, but I'm curious about what you feel would be the best way for Newfoundland and fishers in that area, where you're saying there aren't any North Atlantic right whales, to participate in this process to ensure we're prepared if we are going to see an increase of whales.