Fisheries Committee on Nov. 1st, 2022

[Gerard Chidley]

Personally I'd be looking at approaching the same fund that Mr. Cormier and his team were using to develop a tracking device that can provide real-time access to ocean users on where those whales are. As I said in my presentation, you may never have to deploy a tracking device in Newfoundland and Labrador waters because they may never show up, but in the event that they do start to show up, if you have those devices developed, you can put them in.

I sent some information to the chair on it. I know it was probably a bit cloudy. I just sent a snapshot of vessel activity when the fishing is closed as opposed to.... Can you imagine? It's like a gauntlet that those whales have to go through when they're coming to the Gulf of St. Lawrence and when they're going back out of it. It's just like going through a gauntlet. The simple reason is that while, yes, they may use echolocation to determine where one or another is, it's not just big cargo ships or the fishing vessels. The sailing vessel has much more potential to hit a right whale, because it's quiet.

There are lots of aspects on which we should be providing real-time data to ocean users. We get updates all the time on everything from water temperatures to weather forecasts, so why not a hit that tells us there's a whale there? We'd certainly invest in that kind of technology. We wouldn't have a problem with that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Building off that, you mentioned the consultation that included a Zoom call with some presentations. Can you share a little about what you would imagine a more effective consultation process would look like? Who do you would feel would be best to be part of that consultation?

[Gerard Chidley]

COVID got us away from a lot of the interaction of in-person calls. Normally, the DFO process would be to hold a round of consultations. They'd pick probably five different parts of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador. Then they would look at the evidence from our past to say that there's no sign of any of those, but what if they do show up?

You would get much better engagement if industry provided co-operative decisions on how things should work as opposed to a top-down approach that says that this is what you have to do, because that stuff doesn't work; you get too much opposition to it.

I'm glad that the gulf fishers are participating with Mr. Cormier in this activity, because it has to be done. It seems like it's more prevalent in the gulf, and it may change over time in our zone too, with global warming—we don't know.

We do have one little kind thing on the Grand Banks: We have that cold intermediate layer that covers the ground on the Grand Banks that's been good for our shellfish industry, so that's kind of keeping everything else at bay. That's why the swordfish are outside in the Gulf Stream up around that end and on the Grand Banks, and why the Americans are down on the Grand Banks too.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron. You're a little bit over.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.

I understand, Mr. Arnold, that you're going to share your time. I'll leave it up to you to decide to do that with whomever you're going to share it with.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If there's some time left, I'll be sharing it with Mr. Bragdon.

First, thank you to the witnesses.

There's another piece that I want to make sure we get into this study, and it's possibly a task for the clerks.

As of July 1, 2020, the Commission for Environmental Cooperation's submission on the enforcement matters process, governed by USMCA article 24.27 and article 24.28 of the environment chapter of the free trade agreement between Canada, Mexico, and the United States, has some requirements.

On January 4, 2022, Oceana filed a submission on enforcement matters, SEM 21-003, north Atlantic right whales, under chapter 24 of the U.S.-Mexico-Canada agreement. In its submission, Oceana asserted that the United States is failing to effectively enforce its environmental laws in respect of collisions between north Atlantic right whales and ships, typically called vessel strikes. It also alleged that the U.S. is failing to effectively enforce its environmental laws with respect to entanglement of moving right whales.

On June 3, 2022, the secretariat determined that the submission warrants the preparation of a factual record under article 24.28 and so informed the council and the environment committee. According to the website of the CEC, the Commission for Environmental Cooperation, the CEC council would normally vote on whether to authorize the secretariat to prepare a factual record within 60 working days of receiving the recommendation; however, as of October 28, there is no record of any vote by the council or record of authorization by the secretariat.

This looks like a potential significant impact to U.S. fisheries operations, and I'm wondering if the analysts could possibly do some research and provide it to the committee so that we could consider the possible implications here in Canada of this situation and might be able to include it in the report. Thank you.

Now I'd like to move on to Mr. Philippe Cormier, please, for a quick question.

How many companies are involved in contracts to test either ropeless gear or weak-break-strength gear?

[Philippe Cormier]

Just to confirm, are you asking how many companies build the equipment or are testing it?

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm wondering if you know how many companies are working with Department of Fisheries and Oceans or the Government of Canada on developing and testing that type of gear here in Canada.

[Philippe Cormier]

I would say that probably at least four other groups that I'm aware of are testing it in the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Many companies fabricate that type of equipment. We've been using one.

The reason is that we wanted to be able to see all of them at the same time. That will actually be one of the issues when fishermen start using different brands. It's an issue that's been discussed at the Ropeless Consortium for the past three years now. If everybody—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to move on now to Mr. Chidley.

Mr. Chidley, you described tracking devices for bluefin tuna. Could you better describe the size and use of those types of devices and why they might or might not be usable for tracking right whales?

[Gerard Chidley]

Those devices are supplied specifically and are tailor-made for bluefin tuna. They're satellite tracking devices. The tuna doesn't have to come to the surface to breathe. Every time they do come to the surface, the information is downloaded through a satellite. That's then tracked through Canadian parts in New Brunswick.

With a mammal that has to come to the surface to breathe all the time, every time they come to breathe, you're actually getting a real-time track and a hit. With today's technology, that should be easy to download to any of our vessels on a real-time basis.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Is there any time left to share with Mr. Bragdon?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

He has eight seconds. Probably all he can do is say his name.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

That's all good. Thanks for being here today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

There you go. Your time is up, Mr. Bragdon.

We'll move on now to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being with us, Mr. Haché. You are the representative of the Acadian Peninsula Regional Service Commission, which serves 14 municipalities and 32 local services districts. You are also the mayor of the town of Lamèque.

I think we can say that your region and the Shippagan region are the two major commercial fishing centres in the Acadian Peninsula. At the beginning of your presentation, you said how important fishing is in your region, which has many crab fishers.

Do you think the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is giving sufficient consideration to the impact that fishery closings and measures like the ones relating to whales have on coastal communities?

We know that if we don't protect the whales we will certainly lose access to some markets, and this may be hard on our communities. However, should we take a somewhat broader view when it comes to taking measures like those?

[Jules Haché]

Definitely, every spring, as fishing season approaches, we quickly feel tension setting in, because there are unknowns.

Here in my region, our seaports are blocked by ice and our fishers are often under enormous pressure because they are afraid they will not be able to get out at the same time as the others and will not be able to get to the fishing grounds where they usually go.

That creates tension, because all our plants, our workers, and all our related businesses usually come to life at the same time as the fishers start preparing their boats, so it has an enormous impact on our communities.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

We saw these whales arrive in our region in 2017. Five years later, in 2022, would you say that the fears you refer to have decreased or are they still just as strong?

[Jules Haché]

We still have some fears, but we know that the efforts by entrepreneurs and scientists have produced significant results. Mr. Cormier has just presented us with a very interesting study, which is very positive. I think we are going to have to increase investments in these areas to speed up progress and perfect the technologies.

However, even knowing the results, there will still be worry because of the foreign countries where we export our products, which are the fishing companies' customers. Bad publicity can hurt us very effectively and it is very difficult to get away from it after that. That is why I spoke only about positive messages in my statement. A demonstration of the efforts made and the results obtained would be a major asset.

In this entire phenomenon, as I said, the human dimension and the socioeconomic effects on the regions, as well as the indirect effects, have to be assessed on the same basis, because they are extremely important.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Haché.

Mr. Chair, I will give the remainder of my time to Mr. Morrissey.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Chidley.

This committee has heard numerous testimonies. I'll condense them: It comes down to no one size fitting all in a solution. Canada must take steps to protect the whales; otherwise, there could be a significant impact in terms of our customers in foreign countries.

One of the solutions.... Biologists appearing before the committee indicated that current tracking devices used on other species could not be adapted for use on north Atlantic right whales because of the biology of the animal. These devices simply will not work on them. Everybody agreed that this technology would be [Inaudible—Editor].

Again, up to 2017, there was no problem in the gulf. Then they showed up quickly, and the results were disastrous. Do you not think it would be prudent for DFO to be proactive in recognizing that the whale may migrate into your area and that we should be prepared for when that happens?

[Gerard Chidley]

Yes, by all means, you have to be proactive, but you also have to look at the development they're taking into consideration for the Gulf of St. Lawrence. Why not develop a tracking device suitable to deploy on the animal, whether it be a whale or whatever? They have much thinner skin than bluefin tuna. If you put it on a whale, you may find that one type doesn't work. Then you do more investigation and develop the equipment to be able to do that, if that's what it takes.

On the other side of it, we're saying that even if you don't put on a tracking device, the minute a whale is sighted and you broadcast that sighting, it helps a big lot. If it's sighted in one area, it doesn't go a mile without breathing, so the ships.... I sent a snapshot of the pictures of the ships on the ocean. There are always going to be ships identifying what a whale is. Even though we have a significant amount of fog on the Grand Banks, the whales aren't there then. The whales are not on the Grand Banks at that time of year.

In my mind, the development of technology to put a tracker on the whale is more helpful to our area than it probably would be in the gulf, where the ropeless gear may work better because of the shallower water. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying there's no need to do anything, but we have to be.... You can't just bar off the highway because there's one reckless driver. You have to be able to adapt as you go. To me, that's developing the gear. We will succeed if we do that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

We will go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The differences among the various fishery sectors continue to concern me.

Mr. Haché has shown, and I think we have taken note of what he said, that the fisheries are essential and represent an essential component of the economy. Without them, whole economic and social sectors would collapse in many coastal communities, be they in Acadie or in Quebec, the Gaspé or the Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

Mr. Cormier, would it be a good idea to look at this by sector in order to find solutions to the whale transit, whether they are feeding or are just passing through? Should we take a sectoral approach in order to provide solutions?

[Philippe Cormier]

I think a sectoral approach could be a good idea.

From working with people in different regions, whether in Prince Edward Island, in New Brunswick, in Quebec, in the Gaspé or in the Îles-de-la-Madeleine, we have seen that each region is different and has its own environment.

To come back to the presence of the whales, we were talking earlier about tracking devices. We are in the process of creating a prototype that should be ready by 2023, in partnership with a firm in France. This device would allow us to track whales in real time and, using hydrophones strategically positioned on the sea bottom, to know what type of marine mammal it is. We would thus know exactly where the whales are and where they are going. We could also track boats, to avoid collisions, all with the aid of the artificial intelligence we are now developing. The technological aspect of this project is progressing well, with the help of the Atlantic Fisheries Fund.

To come back to your question, I would say that the idea of taking a different approach for each sector could be beneficial.