Fisheries Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2022

[Vincent Leys]

The designing can be a couple of months, depending on what available data there is. Then there's the time to tender and construction. I'd say that a year is probably a typical timeline, but it could be more or less, depending on the complexity and the amount of data that's needed.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

On Friday, we heard that small craft harbours need to be ready by April 1, at the latest. Based on your expertise, how many of the badly damaged or destroyed wharves will be rebuilt or repaired by then? If we can't get there, what's the solution for harvesters, since they're going to be in quite a predicament?

[Vincent Leys]

That's a good question. I doubt that all the wharves can be fully rebuilt by then, but it depends on the amount of damage. It could be that only a portion of some wharves was damaged or destroyed. In this case, it's easier to build in the fast track to repair. Where it's the entire wharf, I doubt the replacement structure can be in place for the start of the new fishing season.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for six minutes or less.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It's good to see the witnesses here in person and, of course, Mr. Leys on Zoom.

My first question is for Mr. Barron.

In the last meeting, we heard from all Atlantic fisheries ministers that climate change is real. It's here, and we need to do something about it, in the context of coastal infrastructure. We also heard that we need to work together.

Mr. Barron, you highlighted that really well.

I want to unpack a couple of things here. When we say the words, “We need to develop climate resilience for small craft harbours,” for us here, and for those watching, can you paint a picture of what that means to you, as a harvester?

[Michael Barron]

When we talk about building bigger and better, and what we need to do.... In certain instances, some harbours have been years without dredging. As long as these storms keep coming, those harbours are going to keep filling in. Those entrances are going to fill in. Passage in and out of the harbours, which are safe refuges, will be deemed impossible. Dredging projects have to happen.

Breakwaters that have suffered through these storms and lost some of their armour stone have to be built bigger and better. The wharf structures and pilings have to be changed. All of this aging stuff that's taken a back seat has to be repaired.

Dredging projects are of the essence. P.E.I. is a perfect example. A lot of those harbours are probably going to need dredging projects completed before the spring fishery. Is the time there? Are the resources there?

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks for that, Mr. Barron.

I want to provide Mr. Leys with an opportunity, as well. I wanted to hear from the practitioner in the field and on the water, but now I want to hear from the coastal engineer.

In terms of climate resilience and small craft harbours, unpack what that means. What do you deem to be priorities number one, two and three?

[Vincent Leys]

Climate resilience can mean many things, depending on what coastal processes are at play there. If you're talking about a harbour that's, say, on an Atlantic shoreline with a rocky coast, it means high wharves and good breakwaters for wave protection. If you're talking about a small craft harbour on the north shore of P.E.I., climate resilience can mean some sort of established scheme to divert the sediment away from the entrance and make sure you have available dredge contractors on standby, in case they need to intervene.

In all cases, climate resilience means reinforced infrastructure that can take an increase in elevation, because the flood frequency is increasing with these storms. The—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Leys. I apologize for interrupting. I want to stay with you on a couple of items.

Since 2016, the current government has invested nearly $1 billion. The Conservative government previous to that...less. However, it sounds as if, despite these important investments, more needs to be done, obviously, to ensure our harbours are ready now and in the future.

I want to get a sense of the cost. I know this might be an unfair question, but if you look at the small craft harbour wharves in Atlantic Canada, to the best of your ability, can you give us the ballpark for getting harbours climate resilient? I'm referring to the infrastructure you talked about that needs to be bolstered to withstand Fiona and other types of storms that are literally on the horizon.

[Vincent Leys]

That can be a complicated math question, and the numbers can balloon pretty quickly if you estimate that this will be for several hundred small craft harbours around Atlantic Canada. I think the ballpark number is around 800, with a lot of them in Newfoundland for one, as well as others in P.E.I. and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick. A new wharf can be $1 million or more, and for an entire small craft harbour you're talking certainly several million dollars if you're talking new infrastructure. If you multiply that by the number of harbours around, that's certainly a huge number.

The key is to prioritize. As you said correctly, there's been a lot of recent investment in it, which has been extremely useful, as was mentioned, with the priority placed on asset management. Those harbours with more recent structures are the best in terms of climate resiliency in the face of hurricane Fiona. It's really about taking the harbours that have extensive use, in which the structures have deteriorated. These would be the priority.

In terms of a total number for investment, I would defer that question to someone from the small craft harbour department, because they would have a better picture on the total numbers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway. You're down to about 18 seconds, so I don't think you'll get the question out, let alone an answer. We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to a number of fishers' organizations that are here this week in connection with Journée mondiale des pêcheurs artisans et des travailleurs de la mer. We are happy to have them here with us on Parliament Hill.

During our midday discussions, they spoke to us of their serious concerns about the impacts of some fishery closures, as well as climate change and what hurricane Fiona did to the Magdalen Islands in Quebec. Also in Quebec, climate change has been affecting the St. Lawrence River, with some parts completely under water. There is also Place Royale in Quebec city and the silting up of all our wharves. At Isle-aux-Coudres, for example, annual dredging is required and I have witnessed that first-hand myself.

Ms. Eyquem and Ms. Bakos, your approach to natural elements is something I'm keenly interested in. Rockfill has been used in the St. Lawrence River at certain locations because of shoreline erosion. That has been done at the Magdalen Islands as well. The rockfill technique raises concerns, because we can see that the river is eroding the sediment underneath the rocks. As a result, this may not always be the best way of doing things, even though it is being used widely and very quickly, without too many questions being asked.

You were talking about dealing with natural elements. Could you give me a concrete example of how such an approach could be used as compared to the traditional rockfill approaches?

[Joanna Eyquem]

Thank you for your question.

In Canada right now, grey infrastructure solutions appear to be the usual ones, by default. I'm from the United Kingdom and I've worked extensively in the Netherlands, where several methods that involve natural processes were used. It's also being done in several other countries. For example, at Percé, Quebec, there was the beach rehabilitation project, which was largely based on a natural process.

Erosion is a natural process. The problem with rockfill is that it gets in the way of sediment transport. The sediments that are not eroded are not moved, and hence not deposited on beaches. When you have grey infrastructure, it's important to know what the natural system is in order to decide on a process to adopt to make the changes. It's like functional units, and our grey infrastructures prefer natural systems. That means that it's a good idea to know how it all works.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We've been talking about rebuilding outdated infrastructures, like those that were hardest hit precisely because they were outdated. When consideration is being given to these infrastructures, should replacement be an important factor? Indeed, if there is more erosion or evidence of climate change in a specific region, shouldn't we be asking ourselves about a natural location for the infrastructure?

[Joanna Eyquem]

Our paradigm has changed, meaning how we conceive of things. We are now giving more consideration to natural systems at the design phase, from the very outset. I think this aspect needs to be reviewed. Infrastructure breakdowns are an opportunity to ask whether they are in the right location, if another location might not be more appropriate and whether the presence of a pier causes erosion. I've seen instances where the presence of piers stops the movement of sediments and causes the erosion of dunes and beaches farther down the coast.

What you've said is correct. I fully agree with you.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So it's going with the natural patterns and allowing ourselves to be guided by nature when we build infrastructures.

[Joanna Eyquem]

Exactly.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's very interesting.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have a minute and a half.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Barron, since you also represent people from the Magdalen Islands, I'd like to know what, according to you, are the priorities and the most urgent areas to address at that location. Is it the pier at Cap-aux-Meules or the many needs of the fishers? They too have suffered many losses, including financial losses.

[Michael Barron]

I don't represent anybody from the Magdalen Islands.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I had understood that you represented people from the Magdalen Islands.

[Michael Barron]

I represent them through other things we do with the federation, but I don't represent them in this type of situation. They're faced with the same situation we are right now, because....

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Okay.

[Michael Barron]

From the photos I've seen from some of the fishermen over there of the sand dunes and stuff that filled in, they need some major dredging infrastructure there as well.

That's just from what I've seen. I can't speak to it with 100% certainty.