Fisheries Committee on Nov. 29th, 2022

[Peter Warris]

It's not that other jurisdictions have necessarily future-proofed more effectively, it's just that they are already operating in conditions which potentially we're going to have to operate in given the potential impacts of climate change. Certainly as we're looking at warmer waters, we're going to have to look at farming in deeper waters. They already farm mussels in deeper waters in New Zealand, Newfoundland and other areas of the world. We need to look at those jurisdictions to see how they're operating.

There are a lot of lessons to be learned already—potentially—for that. As Ms. Glynn said, she's no expert when it comes to marine engineering, but I think the expertise is out there, and we need to get those people in to talk to our members, our stakeholders, so they can access that expertise.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

If we take Fiona, for example—and I think you alluded to it in your opening statement—in terms of best practices, or practices in general that we learned this time around from Fiona, what can you ascertain from your own experience? You're not a structural engineer, nor am I, but what can you ascertain from observing the catastrophic impact that the storm had on aquaculture, small craft harbours and even processing plants? In Cape Breton, one was essentially wiped out because of the waves and whatnot.

From what you've seen, what are some learning outcomes that we can achieve here?

[Peter Warris]

I think the industry is going to need to be supported in redeveloping their infrastructure. As I mentioned in my opening statement, there are thousands and thousands of dollars invested by owner-operators, small businesses, in their sites and leases already.

With what was done during Dorian, which was the last storm that had a big impact on us before this one, lessons were learned. Gear was sunk well ahead of the storm. However, in this particular case, in some areas it didn't matter. Cages were still destroyed and product was lost. Certainly in the case of seed collectors, a lot of that product was lost completely. It's not just a matter of changing the best practices, it's a matter of supporting the industry to be able to undertake those changes in a—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

In a consistent way?

[Peter Warris]

—reasonably timely manner. We don't know how long it's going be until the next one of these once-in-a-century storms comes along.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's also true.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We will now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will continue with you, Mr. Warris.

You talked about the possibility of having a program for your sector comparable to what exists in agriculture. I'm quite sympathetic to that idea. I have to say that I sat with my colleague on the agriculture emergency committee that was set up at the time of the pandemic, and we realized that the program had been very supportive of farmers for reasons other than climate change, although climate change was probably involved in the pandemic that occurred, but that's another issue. In any case, this program has helped farmers cope with unpredictability. It allowed them to stay afloat.

As far as fish farms are concerned, specialized equipment is needed. Could a program like the one in agriculture be set up for the fisheries sector, i.e., a participatory management program where the government, the fishers and all the stakeholders in the fisheries sector would participate in setting up the necessary funds?

Are fishers open to the idea of a financial assistance program that would allow funds to be available in crisis situations, such as storms that occur due to climate change? This would be a program that would involve both the fishers and the government.

We should not wait for the government to react after a crisis occurs. We need more predictability and we need to give ourselves tools.

Did I understand what you said in your statement?

[Peter Warris]

I referred to existing programs, such as the Canadian agricultural partnership program, which has been established for quite some time. We feel that since these are programs for farming operations, many of them would translate very well to the aquaculture industry, which, as I mentioned, is really a farming industry. Programs for income stabilization, disaster relief and business risk management are already established for Canadian terrestrial farmers.

Certainly, our national organization, CAIA, the Canadian Aquaculture Industry Association, has been talking about piloting business risk management programs similar to those under CAP for the shellfish aquaculture industry for some time. There's no point in reinventing the wheel. The programs are there already. Aquaculture just needs to be able to either access the existing programs or have a subsidiary program set up for just the aquaculture sector, basically based on the same model.

They are already there and working. They may not be perfect. I'm sure there are some farmers you could speak to who would probably say they are not, but it would certainly be something we would like to see.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you get the impression that there is so much concern in the fishing community that some fishers are thinking of changing jobs?

If there is no financial assistance for fishers after storms like the ones we've had, it will create a challenge for many business owners and fishers who will have no money to reinvest in new equipment. This will jeopardize an important part of the fishery.

As we speak, do you get the impression that fishers are reviewing their financial situation?

[Peter Warris]

I would say there definitely is some anxiety. The need for immediate financial assistance is there, especially for some of our members, whose lease infrastructure was completely destroyed. In some areas, we have not just partial damage but also leases that were torn away completely.

For those people to reinvest the time and effort, and go out and completely rebuild what was constructed over many years...to rebuild from new, with the potential for another storm to come in, and there still isn't any financial backing.... Yes, in an industry that supports rural economies across the province...I think that would cause them a lot of anxiety.

We have members impacted by Dorian. They just finished getting everything back together after that storm and have now been impacted by Fiona. It's very heartbreaking for them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. Your time is up.

Before I allow Ms. Barron to start, I want to let her know she was well represented in her absence by Mr. Bachrach and Ms. Zarrillo. They did a fantastic job.

You now have six minutes.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am happy to hear that was the case.

Thank you to the witnesses here today. I'm happy to be back.

Mrs. Glynn, I want to ask you a few questions based on some of the things you discussed in your open statement. You provided some clarification to my colleague MP Kelloway, as well.

You were talking about storm-resilient infrastructure. I want to make sure we're really clear when we write recommendations to the government on how best to move forward.

What do you foresee as the key qualities and characteristics of storm-resilient infrastructure, in terms of what the government should be investing in?

[Sherry Glynn]

Thank you for that question, Ms. Barron.

As I mentioned, there are a couple of things we've been hearing from members, regarding wharves and stages. How high do we need to build those, now? What is high enough? Some people relayed the numbers to me along the way. At one point, a wharf or stage eight feet above the high-water mark was fine. They carried on like that for years and years without an issue. Apparently, that's no longer fine. In one of our communities, we had a 140-year-old heritage structure that withstood 140 years of storms on the southwest coast of Newfoundland, which is not a very hospitable place at the best of times. Fiona destroyed it. In a matter of a couple of hours, it was destroyed.

We know that what we have is not good enough, anymore, because it's all gone. That shoreline was wiped clean. Therefore, we need a different approach. We need to engage experts in marine infrastructure and engineering to get that technology and those techniques in place.

Wharf and stage height is one thing. Another thing harvesters in the area have constantly mentioned is breakwaters. I think we saw, in some of the presentations last week on Cape Breton and P.E.I., that dredging is super important in some areas. However, dredging of the bottom, for the substrate type we have in that area of Newfoundland.... It's not so much dredging that's important. Breakwaters are incredibly important in that area. We need to look at the newest technology and techniques in breakwater construction, so the shorelines and the infrastructure itself—those wharves and stages—are adequately protected.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

That's valuable information for us, as we move forward to ensure the infrastructure being rebuilt, as an investment, will last into the future—and that it's region-specific, based on all the qualities you're talking about. That's very helpful.

You also spoke about lost gear and ensuring there are processes in place to remain responsive and ready when a disaster like hurricane Fiona takes place. I'm wondering whether you could speak a bit to the prevention side of that.

What do you foresee might prevent the quantity of lost gear? Could you, perhaps, expand a bit on what you saw and what you're hearing from fishers on the water about lost gear? What are they seeing?

[Sherry Glynn]

On the prevention part, a lot of that comes back to the more resilient infrastructure, like we've been talking about. Really, in the days since Fiona and some of the visits out there I've already had some harvesters relocate gear. They've bought land in some of these small communities and they will shift whatever they can further away from the water's edge. That's something that harvesters have taken on themselves to try to do to make their own enterprise more resilient in the decisions they can make themselves.

I think the second part of your question, Ms. Barron, was about improving the process of leave for applying for compensation...?

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Any information around it is helpful, so yes, go ahead with that.

[Sherry Glynn]

Okay. Thank you.

The biggest change that I think would be helpful would be just to streamline the process. I don't think any of us should have been or should be in the future terribly surprised about these dramatic and devastating climate-related events. In September, it was eastern Canada. Next month or six months down the road, it could be central Canada, western Canada or the north.

These are all realities that we're facing, and when Fiona hit, in some ways it felt like we were starting from scratch and trying to—I know these programs existed—find ways around it for how we could make this work for the fishing industry. We know these events are going to happen, unfortunately, but I think we could be better prepared and have the processes in place.

We're over two months down the road now. It's nine weeks or so since the hurricane struck. I and a co-worker have spent several weeks in the area and have done a lot of work on this, and we're still just now looking at—hopefully—getting some applications submitted to the DFFA program. That was with assistance from the province to answer questions. They're quick and everything; it's just if that process could be streamlined and provide people with some predictability. I think that's what everybody finds difficult in this: They're not sure what's going to be covered. They're not sure what that compensation might look like. They're not sure of the next steps.

It's not that we want to water things down. I mean, we all realize that we're spending other people's money and we must be incredibly accountable to Canadian taxpayers, but if there were a bit more predictability and streamlining of that application process it would be very helpful.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

I will let the committee know that our third witness has joined us: Mr. Arseneau, from the Îles-de-la-Madeleine.

I would need consent from the committee to allow him to start an opening statement. I notice that he doesn't have a set of House earphones. If that's the case, if we do, I would ask the interpreters to let us know if there's a problem with it, and we'll cut if off or not. Could we....

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'm just concerned about the interpreters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I realize that.

Perhaps what we will do in the case of people not being comfortable with not the right equipment, we could ask Mr. Arseneau to send in his written statement to the committee, so that the committee could have that and use that as a statement, but I will remind members that if they want to ask Mr. Arseneau a question, in the next two questioners, to identify that you're asking a question of Mr. Arseneau, and we'll see what happens, okay?

Mr. Bragdon, you have five minutes or less, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today and for sharing some very important information with us at the committee. Important considerations have been contained in the testimony that we've heard from all the witnesses so far.

I want to address my questions primarily to you today, Mr. Warris. Thank you for joining us here from the beautiful island of Prince Edward Island. I had the privilege of visiting there shortly after hurricane Fiona went through. I visited some of the wharfs that were directly impacted—Stanley Bridge, of course, and North Rustico—and witnessed some of the direct effects and huge impacts that were held there.

One of the concerns we're hearing directly from those who rely on the fishing industry for their livelihoods is that in the immediate aftermath of the storm, lots of politicians came running in with promises of help and aid and all kinds of resources. All of us want to do what we can to make sure that help gets there, but oftentimes, after the immediate aftermath of a storm and it blows out to sea, the politicians go back and people are still left to try to clean up the mess and deal with the situation. The key is to make sure that there's expediency, that there's urgency and that there's continuity in the help that is coming from here to the provinces, and in particular to the wharfs that have been so impacted by hurricane Fiona, so that those harvesters and those in the aquaculture business who have been so devastatingly impacted are getting the help they need in an expeditious way.

Can you speak to that for a moment? In your estimation, has the assistance come readily? Are the wharfs being repaired expeditiously? Do you feel that these harvesters will be able to get back on the water, doing what they do, in a timely fashion?

[Peter Warris]

In terms of the wharves, I can't really speak to them directly. Our members do use small craft harbour wharves and other launch points that are administered by the provincial government. It's great that some funding has been assigned towards the development and future-proofing of those harbours and other infrastructure.

In terms of the program that's out there now to help our smaller employer members with the impact they've suffered directly from the storm damage, there was a lot of uncertainty around what would be covered. There still is some uncertainty around what will be covered and how that will happen. Certainly, the Red Cross, who administer that program, have said that they're going to support our members through that. We've been supporting our members through that application process. It's not necessarily going to be an immediate thing, and it shouldn't necessarily be an immediate thing, for some of our members. As I mentioned, they potentially won't see damages until further through the winter, so we don't necessarily want them to rush into something and then realize that they have significantly more expenses than had been initially estimated.

I would say, looking to the future, that if the aquaculture industry could access CAP or a similar program, then that would provide a level of certainty to the industry that they will have a program there from the get-go specifically for aquaculture. At the moment, the provincial program really is general to everybody.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

One of the things we've heard quite a bit, Mr. Warris, from those in the aquaculture sector, and of course from those in the harvesting sector on the island, is the absolute need for sound, solid investment in the infrastructure to get it up to speed on our wharfs, in particular small craft harbours. This was identified in a report that came out three years ago. There needed to be strategic investment not only in the wharfs and the infrastructure for small craft harbours but also in the area of dredging. I know that in Malpeque there have been some real challenges in the harbour with a major dredging need there.

It seems like promises get made, and a lot of commitments, and the blue economy always gets talked about, but if we do not invest and adapt our infrastructure for the future.... We know that storms are inevitable. We know what's going to be coming. What we have to do is strategically invest in adequate infrastructure to support the incredible potential of our blue economy, that being aquaculture and fisheries going into the future.

Along that line, we know that there will be harvesters that want to get back on the water. Do you feel that they will have adequate resources in place and that small craft harbours and wharfs will be up to speed in time for the oncoming seasons?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Bragdon, we've gone way over time.

I'd ask Mr. Warris to submit an answer in writing to the committee, if he could, please. Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey, for five minutes or less, please.