Fisheries Committee on March 27th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I now call this meeting to order.

I apologize to everybody for doing this via Zoom today. Unfortunately, there was a fire at the local airport in St. John's on Friday night that put the kibosh on a lot of flights getting out. I won't get out until later this evening.

Welcome to meeting number 59 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place, of course, in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

For the first hour of today's meeting, we will be studying the subject matter of supplementary estimates (C). We will then proceed to study the main estimates during the second and final hour.

Before we begin, I would like to welcome our guests, starting with the Honourable Joyce Murray, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard.

The honourable minister is joined today by officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. We'll start with Annette Gibbons, deputy minister; Mario Pelletier, commissioner, Canadian Coast Guard; and Richard Goodyear, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister. Niall O'Dea, senior assistant deputy minister, strategic policy, will be joining us for the second hour.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear before the committee today.

We'll start with the minister, who will give a five-minute opening statement to start our study of supplementary estimates (C).

When you're ready, Minister, you can start.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Minister of Fisheries]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning.

I'm pleased to be here on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe nation.

I'm happy to be joined by the deputy minister, Annette Gibbons; the commissioner of the Canadian Coast Guard, Mario Pelletier; and the chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister, Richard Goodyear.

I'm appearing before the committee today to present the Supplementary Estimates (C), 2022‑23, on behalf of Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard.

I will start by providing an overview of some key items and then provide more detail, where possible. Following that, I'd be happy to answer any questions that you may have.

Mr. Chair, in the supplementary estimates (C), I'm seeking $104.2 million for a number of important items. This sum includes $52.2 million for increased marine and aviation fuel costs for the Canadian Coast Guard, $22.6 million for a litigation settlement and $9.7 million from the $100 million committed to the small craft harbours program and the ghost gear fund. This sum is for cleaning up and recovering lost and abandoned fishing gear and for recovery efforts for essential harbours affected by hurricane Fiona.

Canadians have faced a particularly challenging year. The cost of running Canadian Coast Guard ships and helicopters has increased due to the international pressures of inflation and increased fuel costs. This isn't something we can predict, nor is it an expense we can afford to cut corners on. Mariners, coastal and indigenous communities, and all Canadians rely on the Canadian Coast Guard to help keep them and their waters safe and clean.

Last year, hurricane Fiona was one of the most devastating storms ever to hit Atlantic Canada and eastern Quebec, thus further demonstrating the impacts of climate change on coastal communities. That's the new reality we must adapt to.

Hurricane Fiona damaged over 130 small craft harbours, splintering infrastructure and scattering fishing gear throughout local waters. Last October I visited Covehead Harbour in P.E.I. and saw some of this damage first-hand. I heard directly from fish harvesters and those who live in coastal communities about the impact of Fiona on their livelihoods. I saw the destroyed oyster and mussel infrastructure. It's incumbent upon our government to help clean up this overwhelming damage.

Mr. Chair, we were also required this year to settle a lawsuit related to past decisions in the amount of $22.6 million. There is a non-disclosure clause in the settlement agreement, so I won't be able to provide more information on it.

Mr. Chair, the funding I'm seeking through the supplementary estimates (C) is essential to continue our work of protecting Canada's mariners and our marine environment. As well, it will ensure that my department can fulfill its mandate for all Canadians.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to questions from the members of the committee. We'll start off with Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I'm sure you've been made aware that there's going to be a very challenging year ahead in Atlantic Canada in the fishery, especially due to negative signals in the snow crab industry.

Last year you committed to me several times, including at committee of the whole, that the trial survey for northern cod this year would be going ahead and that this crucial information would be there to be used in the stock assessment. Will you supplement this missing piece of data by placing extra weight on the catch data submitted by fish harvesters and observers this year in the setting of that quota?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for the question.

We do make decisions based on best available science. That science includes the experience of fish harvesters, indigenous knowledge and the catch-per-effort data, as well as the science that's done by my ministry. We'll continue to make decisions based on science and we'll be providing TAC according to what is sustainable.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

On per unit effort catch data for northern cod, according to Mustad, which is very experienced in cod fisheries in the autoline segment, the average catch rates in the North Atlantic are nowhere near what fishers in Newfoundland and Labrador have experienced this year.

Based on that data, if a very conservative exploitation rate of 4% is desired by most industry stakeholders I've talked to, will you commit to doubling the northern cod quota this year in light of what fishermen are faced with in the Atlantic snow crab?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'll commit to a quota that is based on the best available science.

As I said, when there is not the comparative trawling, we will be looking at the other data points that we utilize in combination with that as we make our decision.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Given that we haven't had that trawl data since 2019, and we've had catch data—per unit catch data—that shows quite the rebound in northern cod, are you telling us that there's a good chance that you'll increase the northern cod quota this year?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

First, I do understand the importance of these fisheries to coastal communities, fish harvesters and processors, absolutely. The fundamental approach is a precautionary one, and it is based on the best available science, so we'll be establishing a quota for that stock in due course, and it will be founded on those things.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Minister.

This is another thing you're very familiar with. Much of last year's Atlantic snow crab sits in inventory, and the outlook for that industry, as I just pointed out, is grim.

The U.S. sanctioned Russian snow crab over the war in Ukraine. What have you done together with the trade minister and the Minister of Global Affairs to pressure Japan and South Korea to follow suit and stop buying from Russia when Canada has more than enough crab to fill these markets?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

As we both agree, Canada is known for its sustainable, ethical and premium-quality fish and seafood. That's thanks to hard-working fish harvesters.

I have raised this matter personally twice with the ambassador from Japan to Canada, in fact, once at his residence at a reception. We are taking a team Canada approach, because I know other ministers, like the trade minister, are raising this issue as well and working closely with the industry and Atlantic provinces. We will stand up for our fish harvesters and our fishing industry and help export our top-quality products around the world.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

The Atlantic Canadian fishing industry is counting on you, Minister.

Last year you announced a wild Atlantic salmon conservation strategy. Since we're here on estimates, what funding have you asked for to fund this program?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

The Atlantic salmon is hugely important, and it is our job collectively as a society and mine as a minister to work to restore the abundance of wild Atlantic salmon. They're iconic, and we want to help the stock recover and grow. The aquatic ecosystems restoration fund is providing over $5 million over the next five years for salmon restoration activities, including in Newfoundland, with the Atlantic salmon foundation.

I must say that there are so many organizations and individuals who are committed to Atlantic salmon recovery that I look forward to working with them as well so that we amplify the impacts of the funding we're providing.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Minister.

Last year salmon anglers in Newfoundland and Labrador asked for a much-expanded river guardian program. You gave them one-quarter of what they asked for. When poaching is a major issue on our rivers, why did you only give them a quarter of what they need for enforcement on the rivers? If you're going to follow this policy that you allegedly have here, why don't you give the salmon stakeholders what they want in terms of enforcement on the river? Don't you think that's where we have to start first?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thanks for raising indigenous guardian programs—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Small; your time is up.

Minister, could you provide an answer in writing if the question doesn't get a chance to be answered during the questioning? We've gone over the allotted time for Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Madam Minister.

I want to begin by quoting a former fishery minister from Newfoundland, the Honourable John Crosbie, who made the statement as minister that he hoped to get the decisions right for the future livelihood of fishers. That was just months before he closed the Atlantic cod fishery in 1992.

Yes, it's extremely important that ministers get decisions right for the future of the fishery that we so depend on.

This is my first question. You referenced hurricane Fiona. I had raised with you the possibility of utilizing port authorities more to roll out repair funding for their harbours. Could you comment on that? Has there been any progress made on that?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Absolutely, and thanks for that question, because that seized our imaginations and our empathy over the course of that hurricane.

Approximately 185 small craft harbours were in the path of the hurricane. Of those, many were impacted. DFO officials immediately were in contact with the harbour authorities and went out to assess the damage and began the task of determining the priorities to repair and rebuild. We announced $100 million for support for the critical immediate repair work as well as to pull out and recover abandoned gear that was washed into the oceans, which creates a risk.

We've also worked very closely with provincial partners on this. We'll continue this work. About 10% of that funding was spent in the last fiscal year.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Minister.

It's important that we get that out as quickly as possible to get this vital infrastructure repaired and protected.

Minister, you made reference in your comments to cutting corners in the department and that you were providing funding to ensure that didn't have to be. One area that I've heard a growing level of concern about from fishers over the last number of months is illegal fishing. One of the best-managed fisheries in Canada is the Atlantic lobster fishery. The record speaks for itself. If all fisheries were as strong and well managed, we'd have a very prosperous east coast, both in lobster and in crab.

However, my question to you, and I'm going to be candid, is in the area of illegal fishing—illegal fishing when it comes to commercial as well as indigenous fishers. What is the department's position, and how are you growing the ability of the department to enforce protection in this critical fishery? That's across the board. Illegal is illegal, and the department should be using all the steps it has in enforcement to control it.

Could you comment, Minister?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Conservation is, of course, the primary principle for the management of fisheries, because if we don't conserve fish, we know what happens: It undermines the fish and seafood sector in the future. Therefore, conservation is very important.

We have compliance and protection officers who are hired to enforce the regulations and the Fisheries Act for all harvesters. Any unauthorized fishing activity may be subject to enforcement action, and that's domestic and international alike. I do want to mention that there is serious concern around illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing, which hurts legitimate fisheries and takes place on the high seas. We work on that element as well with global partners.

Here in Canada, we work in coordination with municipal and provincial compliance and enforcement officers to make sure we're as effective as possible in DFO in doing that work.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

How has the department added to its protection enforcement capacity over the last period of time?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I'll turn that over to one of the officials in terms of adding to C and P budgets.

[Annette Gibbons, Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I'm not sure that we've had a specific increase in recent years. We certainly ensure that we prioritize where our offices are, in line with fisheries that are open. We also work with communities to provide information to us as well.

We certainly are very seized with making sure that we're well aware of what's happening on the water.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

In the area of fishery compliance officers, could you provide to the committee what that capacity is? What is the number of compliance officers that you have today?

Does the department have plans to increase its capacity in that area?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

We may need to provide the answer of the exact number of compliance and enforcement officers in writing.

What I can say is that soon after being appointed, I worked with the ministry to make sure we could leverage the work that our C and P officers are doing by coordinating and collaborating with other federal compliance and enforcement members such as the RCMP, as well as with provincial and local compliance and enforcement officials, so that collectively the effectiveness would be as great as possible.