Fisheries Committee on April 20th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 62 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

The meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

For interpretation for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of either floor, English or French. Those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Screenshots and taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

Finally, this is a reminder to all that the use of a House-approved headset is mandatory for remote participation in parliamentary proceedings.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of the ecosystem impacts and management of pinniped populations.

I would like to welcome our first panel of witnesses. We have Morley Knight, former assistant deputy minister, fisheries policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans, who is appearing in person as an individual. We have Mélanie Lemire, associate professor, Université Laval, by video conference. She is representing the Collectif Manger notre Saint-Laurent. We have Colombe Saint-Pierre, chef-owner, Restaurant Chez Saint-Pierre, by video conference. We have Mr. Bill Penney, business developer, representing Mi'kmaq Commercial Fisheries Inc.

Thanks for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for your opening statement, and I will invite Mr. Knight to start off, please.

[Morley Knight, Former Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries Policy, Department of Fisheries and Oceans (Retired), As an Individual]

Thank you, Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'll start off by thanking you for the opportunity to appear before your committee again. In my opening remarks today, I'm going to talk about my direct experience with harp and hooded seals, as well as grey seals and other species.

In 1982, my first year with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, I was at the front off the northeast coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. I was there at the tail end of the season for the large vessels from Canada and Norway and at the start of the activities for the less-than-65-foot vessels that were harvesting seals about 100 miles east of St. Anthony. That was the last year of harvesting whitecoats. In the following years, markets and harvest levels declined dramatically to around 50,000 animals a year. During that same time, seal populations expanded to five times what they were before, and groundfish stocks collapsed across eastern Canada.

For years, prior to and including 1982, there was a quota of 186,000 harp seals. The herd was stable at that time at approximately two million animals. Thirty-five years later, in 2017, I had the opportunity to visit Sable Island, where grey seals were congregated for their annual pupping cycle. There were thousands of these huge animals and pups on the island. Seeing them there in such huge numbers was an eye-opening experience.

For centuries, both fish and seals were harvested, with the number of seals being kept at levels that were not having the impact on fish species that they are today. After 1982, markets and harvest levels dropped. About the same time, the bounty on grey seals ended. Over the following years, the number of seals increased about fivefold. I believe seals were a key factor in the collapse of groundfish stocks. They remain a key factor in preventing cod recovery and being major predators on lobster, crab, salmon, herring, etc.

If you add up all the seals in eastern Canada and the Davis Strait, I believe there are about nine million seals, including harp, hooded, grey and such other species as harbour, ringed and bearded seals. Based on an estimated consumption of 1.4 tonnes of fish per year for harp seals and as much as two tonnes per year for the larger animals, such as hooded, grey and bearded seals, they would consume around 13 million tonnes of fish annually.

In the same area, in the same ecosystem, there are fisheries in Greenland and Canada from the Scotian Shelf to the Davis Strait and foreign fisheries on the Grand Banks and Flemish Cap. When you add it all up, the removal from all fisheries is somewhere in the range of 500,000 tonnes to 600,000 tonnes. The consumption by seals is more than 20 times the total of all our commercial fisheries.

Based on my experience and observations, and after talking to thousands of fish harvesters and DFO employees, including fishery officers, scientists and fisheries managers, and others from all over eastern Canada, I believe seals are consuming a huge amount of commercial species of fish, including crab, lobster, salmon, cod, turbot and important prey species like herring and capelin. Unless some action is taken to mitigate the impact of seals, there is no way to effectively manage important fish species using the precautionary approach. The seals will continue to eat them before the stocks reach the level where they can be fished commercially.

Seals are everywhere in the ecosystem and are eating whatever they can find, whether it is the belly of a codfish or a crab. I have reviewed the recent testimony of MP Cormier about the seals visible from his house in Baie-des-Chaleurs. I can also see them from my house in northeast Newfoundland. They are there to feed. They can be found in every bay and inlet and cove all around our coast. Recently a seal was spotted in the Exploits River near the community of Grand Falls-Windsor, which is about 20 miles inland. It was probably eating salmon that were returning to the ocean.

Seals need to be effectively managed as part of an effective ecosystem-based approach to fisheries management. The first step in that is to have a clear understanding of how much of each species of fish the seals are eating and what the impact is on each stock of fish.

There are many things that government can do to create the conditions for successful management and utilization of seal stocks. These include coordination, infrastructure, research and development, marketing and trade support, and vessel insurance, just to name a few.

In conclusion, I have two recommendations for you to consider putting to DFO.

One is to study the issue of seal consumption and determine how much of each species of fish each species of seal is consuming annually. The second is to implement an ecosystem-based approach with management strategies that include reducing the impact of predation by seals on key commercial and food chain species.

Thank you for the opportunity to present to your committee today. I'll try to answer your questions when we get to that.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Ms. Saint-Pierre and Ms. Lemire.

It's my understanding that you're doing a joint statement. I don't know who's starting, who's finishing or if it's just one of you speaking.

When you're ready, you have five minutes or less.

[Dr. Mélanie Lemire, Associate Professor, Université Laval, Collectif Manger notre Saint-Laurent]

Good afternoon and thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

The Mange ton Saint-Laurent! collective was co-founded in 2018 by a group of researchers and scientists from various disciplines, along with a number of culinary chefs and artists. Its purpose is to promote well-known or lesser-known edible species from the St. Lawrence. I'm also a researcher in environmental and indigenous health at Université Laval. My projects focus on traditional cuisine and preventing exposure to contaminants.

We are here today to report on the most significant facts pertaining to the growing presence of seal products in Quebec markets and elsewhere in Canada. Our main contention is that diversifying St. Lawrence resources has many beneficial impacts, not only on the environment, but also public health, cuisine and the economy.

Here are a few facts. The Quebec fishery basically consists of three species: lobster, snow crab and northern shrimp. Marketing more seal products would help diversify the fishery economy and improve our resiliency to the ups and downs of climate change and international markets.

One of our studies shows that the grey seal is exceptionally rich in iron and all kinds of other good things. The meat is lean and less contaminated than the meat of bluefin tuna, and seal fat is remarkably rich in good fat, including omega-3 fatty acids. That means that it's possible to consume seal products responsibly, in a well-informed and safe manner, by adding them to a more diverse range of foods based on several St. Lawrence species.

Another of our studies demonstrated that public health stakeholders consider seal hunting to be sustainable and socially acceptable, and that it plays an important role in the economic development of coastal communities, which would like to be able to promote seal products to poorer families.

In the Magdalen Islands, seal has always played a key role in the local culture, diet and economy, and it still does. Seal hunting and seal products are a matter of local pride. Have you ever tasted "croxignoles", donuts fried in seal oil, or more recently, a seal burger or even seal tataki? You can find them in the Magdalen Islands and even, increasingly, in various restaurants in eastern Canada.

I'll now give the floor to Colombe Saint-Pierre, the collective's spokesperson.

[Colombe Saint-Pierre, Chef-Owner, Restaurant Chez Saint-Pierre, Collectif Manger notre Saint-Laurent]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I feel truly honoured to be here this afternoon. I am the chef and owner of the Chez Saint-Pierre restaurant in Le Bic, Quebec, and the owner of the Cantine côtière.

I am here today mainly because I'm the spokesperson for the Mange ton Saint-Laurent! collective. Those who know me a little better are aware that I have been fighting on behalf of food self-sufficiency for 20 years, and this was central to our concerns during the recent pandemic. We heard a lot about it and realized that things had become a little more vulnerable over the years, which is why we are here today.

I believe that having a wider range of St. Lawrence products on our plates would provide our coastal communities with a sustainable future and contribute to our healthy culinary tradition. Demand for St. Lawrence products has been rising in Canada and abroad. Seal hunt products are part of the picture and provide an unprecedented opportunity that we need to seize right now. Independent restaurants like mine have a major role to play in familiarizing people with little known St. Lawrence species, and in combatting misleading information. We are, and will continue to be, a powerful vehicle for influencing trends and eating habits across the country, and seal is part of the picture.

Having given a few presentations internationally, I can tell you that our reputation is impeccable and that we have the power to help project a positive perception of Canadian seal products, with support from our governments, of course. Seal products are unfortunately not available in large enough quantities to meet current demand, which has been growing beyond the Magdalen Islands.

Please give some thought to the maxim that all of my own values are based upon: "Tell me what you eat, and I will tell you what you are." The quote is from Brillat Savarin's famous book on gastronomy,The Physiolology of Taste.

On that note, I will tell you that seal is a part of our land. Its historical ties with the people of this country should be maintained and supported. We would like our gastronomy to rest on a diversity of resources, not only for the resilience of our establishments, but also of our environment and our communities. Seal is definitely a part of it.

We established the Mange ton Saint-Laurent! collective to provide support when the government has to make decisions, because we have information that can be extremely useful to it. I would therefore like to thank you for your invitation to testify before the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Mr. Penney for five minutes or less, please.

[Bill Penney, Business Developer, Mi'kmaq Commercial Fisheries Inc.]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me here today.

My name is Bill Penney, and I am the lead at Bill Penney Sales and Marketing Consulting. I am the chair of the Seals and Sealing Network, and I have been working with Mi’kmaq Commercial Fisheries on their seal product file for almost three years.

I am not a scientist, a sealer or a processor; I’m not an expert in any of those areas. However, I have over 25 years of international sales and marketing experience.

I am here today representing Mi’kmaq Commercial Fisheries. MCF is an independent, arms-length indigenous company owned by Qalipu First Nation. Qalipu First Nation is one of the largest first nation bands in Canada, with 24,000 members spread throughout 67 traditional Newfoundland Mi’kmaq communities. Mi’kmaq Commercial Fisheries manages all fisheries activities on behalf of Qalipu First Nation.

I want to also clarify that I am not a member of Qalipu First Nation, nor am I indigenous.

Since I started working with MCF, I have learned that the hunting, consumption and diversified usage of seals is interwoven into the fabric of indigenous peoples' traditions and culture. Mi’kmaq Commercial Fisheries seeks to engage locally, nationally and internationally to advocate the humane harvesting, processing, marketing and use of seal products.

Just two and a half years ago, we launched an indigenous brand of seal oil capsules for human consumption called Waspu Oil. “Waspu” is the Mi’kmaq word for “seal”. Waspu oil is currently being sold in retail stores across Canada and through our website, www.waspu.ca.

Our next product, Waspu Oil for Pets, will be launching in the next few weeks, having just received approval from Health Canada as a certified veterinary health product.

Additionally, MCF promotes the full utilization of seal and has been actively engaging with potential customers for seal meat products in Japan, the Philippines and China. In addition to the encapsulated oil, I have been working with customers in Japan to supply bulk liquid seal oil.

It's important to understand that the marketing challenge for seal products is not a lack of customers but rather the lack of access to those customers. In efforts to gain market access, I have been working with Global Affairs and the trade commission offices in Taiwan and other countries to open previously closed markets to indigenous-branded seal products.

We have also been actively engaged with the CFIA and the trade commissioner's office in China to identify the roadblocks for exporting to the Chinese market. We do currently have a customer who sells private-label seal oil capsules through their cross-border e-commerce site.

I am relatively new to this industry, compared to the expert witness testimonies you have already heard and will hear. My career has always focused on figuring out how people make decisions, and I have learned that not unlike the fur industry, oil and gas, and our energy sector, the seal industry is directly affected by public opinion.

Specific to seals, the public’s view on the global stage has been shaped by an onslaught of celebrity reactions to the seal industry as it existed over 30 years ago. In fact, government policy around the management and regulation of the seal population is still being shaped by public perceptions that are created by activists and that have no connection to truth, facts or science.

The fact remains that the seal population we are discussing here today is not endangered and that the harvest itself is humane, sustainable and not only good for Canadians but also good for the world.

The current offering from Canadian seal harvests is diverse and innovative. Omega-3-rich seal oil supplements for health are good for everyone from children to seniors. Seal meat is being sold in gourmet restaurants, and it is being used as high-end feed, treats and supplements for pets. The sustainable, natural, warm and waterproof sealskin is used for garments and accessories. Full utilization shows respect and will maximize value for all levels of the value chain.

My ask for this committee and the government is threefold.

The first request is for financial support for marketing efforts, both domestically and globally. In 2006, the seal industry generated over $30 million in revenue. Supporting our marketing and sales programs will have a positive impact on the Canadian economy. Focus on facts: Most Canadians do not know the facts about the seal, but they can repeat the misinformation and propaganda produced by organizations that use the seal industry for its fundraising efforts.

The second is for support for market access. Expand the Indigenous Peoples Economic and Trade Cooperation Arrangement, which includes Canada, Taiwan, Australia and New Zealand, to include other countries. Supporting indigenous exports is important for reconciliation. There cannot be reconciliation without economic reconciliation.

Third is commitment to science. Our oceans generate over $30 billion in the Canadian economy. Annual audits show Canadian fish stocks continue to decline. With fish populations decreasing, why wouldn’t we want to know what is happening?

I know one stock that is not declining: seals. This should also include the social science recommendation 5 of the Atlantic seal science task team. The report reads, “DFO should establish and permanently fund a social science research unit to complement the natural science research”.

Thank you, and I look forward to any questions later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now get to our questions, and we'll go first to Mr. Small for six minutes or less. I know he's on video conference looking at us.

I would remind members to try to identify who your question is for to make better use of your time.

Mr. Small, go ahead for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is to Mr. Knight.

Mr. Knight, what's the number one impediment, based on your vast experience in fisheries management, to the establishment of a viable pinniped harvest?

[Morley Knight]

Very clearly, the number one impediment is the lack of an effective market for the product.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Knight, what steps have been taken since 1982 to make the harvest more humane and more socially acceptable?

[Morley Knight]

That's a very good question.

Since 1982, all kinds of steps have been put in place to counter the accusations of animal rights groups and to make sure that the hunt is conducted in a very humane way and that animals are harvested in a professional manner that causes them minimal suffering.

These include requirements, for example, to have certain types of firearms, and many types of firearms have been banned because they wouldn't make an effective, immediate killing and might result in animals being wounded and getting away in a wounded state. There's been the ban of the killing of whitecoats. There have been measures around humane killing that included making sure the animal is dead before any skinning or processing of it occurs. That includes making sure the skull is crushed so that there is no life left.

There are other measures, such as training individuals engaged in the harvest. On top of that, there's been a significant amount of reaction and mitigative action taken by the sealing industry to make sure that only professional sealers are engaged, and a significant amount of activity engaged in by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to make sure that the seal harvest is effectively monitored and that when there is harvesting activity, it is conducted in a humane manner.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Knight, have we been successful in our attempts to modernize to make the industry more socially acceptable? What's been the success? Can you measure that success?

[Morley Knight]

It's difficult to measure the success. We've had veterinarians assess the measures that are in place, including a veterinarian from the University of P.E.I. who was involved for many years in the activities, to ensure that seals were being harvested in the most humane manner possible. I think that measures that are in place now meet a very high standard. I would consider that success.

At the same time, in terms of public opinion, I don't think we've made much progress in terms of making sure that the world understands that seals are being harvested in a humane manner and in a manner completely comparable to the harvest of other animals in processing facilities for farm animals, for example.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We can say that the information campaign—or the misinformation campaign, whichever way you want to put it—by activists and NGOs has been quite successful. What needs to be done to address the approach that's being taken by activists and ENGOs towards the seal hunt?

[Morley Knight]

That's a very difficult question to answer.

I've read some of the testimony you've had from other witnesses. I think some good ideas have been put forth. We've heard some ideas today about marketing. I've expressed that we need to demonstrate that the harvest is conducted in a humane manner and that it is a sustainable harvest, because that message is not getting through to people, in my opinion.

I think the governments in Canada—and I say governments collectively, so that includes the federal and provincial governments—need to work together to have an information campaign to illustrate and continually demonstrate that the seal harvest is a humane activity and a sustainable activity, and that we have the science to show that the herds are being managed in a sustainable manner. At the same time, I think a crucial part of that is the need to demonstrate to the world the impact that seals are having on our ecosystems and on our fish stocks. I think that without that piece of information to illustrate....

We have to do something. We have no choice other than to manage effectively, using an ecosystem-based approach to fisheries management. We have no choice but to manage the seal populations.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Chair, how's my time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You had 28 seconds. You have 23 now.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I heard you, Mr. Knight. You mentioned the issue of vessel insurance and high insurance. The deductibles are up to $100,000, prohibiting a lot of harvesters from taking part in the hunt. That's what I've heard from stakeholders.

What do you think the solution to that would be to help more people participate in the hunt?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm going to have to interject here, Mr. Small, because your time has gone over. Hopefully, Mr. Knight can provide that answer along the way or provide it to the committee in writing.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for being here, Mr. Knight.

As I said, there are many seals in front of my house that I have never seen before. I think we need to do something about the seal population.

In the time you were ADM, in the discussions that you had with other ADMs at Fisheries and Oceans or with the DM, was there any will to solve the problem during your discussions? What was the reason for doing nothing for so many years?

[Morley Knight]

Thank you for the question. It's a very good question.

In my time in DFO, there was a lot of discussion. At various times, there was energy and a real interest in finding solutions, but I guess fatigue set in and people lost interest because it seems to be an insurmountable problem. I think there was interest, but there needs to be sustained interest, collaboration by all levels of government and a game plan that's going to work. It's taking steps in the right direction, steps that are going to build to a successful outcome.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

When we talk to fisher associations, a lot of them also want us to act very quickly. As you said, seals are eating many species. Maybe they're eating some crab and lobster, as well as some mackerel and herring, and we're always talking about the impact that this could have on our exporting market.

How can we go past that? If I'm a fisherman right now, am I prepared to put everything on the table and say, “Yes, we have to go with the seal harvest. Lower its population as low as we can so that it doesn't have an impact.” At the same time, what will the reaction of other countries be? How can we surpass that? How can we make sure that other countries or environmental groups understand that there is a real problem here?

We're not doing this just for fun. We're doing this because there's a real problem with the ecosystem of our species.

[Morley Knight]

That's a very good question. If there was an easy answer to it, we would have found it 30 years ago, when this was recognized as a real problem as far back as 1990, or in the following 10 or so years.

I believe there are various things we can do. I think the first thing we have to do is have information to present to the world about the impact the seals are having on our fish stocks. We have to present the compelling case that we have no choice but to manage the seal herds in an effective manner.

Second, we have to have an information campaign that demonstrates that our harvest is conducted in a humane manner.

Third, we need to use opportunities. For example, I believe there's an opportunity for indigenous organizations and companies to market seals into the European market. That needs some coordination. It may need some government support from the trade side. It may need some government support from the funding side. I think there's an opportunity that we're missing in having indigenous companies and individuals participate in the harvest and market it as indigenous. There is an exemption to the EU ban, for example. I think they could effectively market their products in Europe.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

One of the officials we had on the panel a couple of weeks ago said that their mandate is to keep the seal population healthy. An official from DFO said that.

What do you think of that?