Fisheries Committee on April 24th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley. We've run out of time. We're a bit over.

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. Their testimony is obviously truly fascinating. They have shared their perspective with us on the situation in Canada's far north.

Last weekend, I met with a friend of my father's. He was with a filmmaker, more specifically a documentary filmmaker, who is doing research into realities in the St. Lawrence. For example, he's shining a light on the fact that the Beluga whale population is declining in the St. Lawrence, that there are no more cod in the river and that various species, such as striped bass, are feeding on the small fish that used to be part of our fisheries.

All of this is a big challenge back home in Quebec. I'm realizing that, relatively speaking, they have the same observations in the far north. We're hearing the same thing, that they are not necessarily being listened to. In fact, Fisheries and Oceans Canada doesn't seem to be taking your immediate needs seriously, or your wish to improve your observations and your relationships with people on the ground. It seems to me that they have knowledge of what's happening in real time. In my opinion, that's what we've been missing for the past 25 years.

Twenty-five years ago, my father said that if they banned the seal hunt, there would be no more cod in the river. He was right. People on the ground have that kind of knowledge.

How long have you felt that you don't have the resources to do the research? You have greater needs, but fewer financial resources. Approximately how long have you felt this way?

[Tom Henheffer]

Thank you for the question.

It's always been a serious problem. We've very rarely had any federal government funding. That's why we work together to create networks of universities, territorial governments, provincial governments and federal departments when we can. It's to create good research programs.

Every year, it's a scramble to stack enough programs together so that we don't lose too much money, which would jeopardize the foundation. We're a non-profit charity. We lose funds in the delivery of our work. That's fine. We're not here to make a profit.

The biggest issue is not so much “how long?” as it is “what's happening right now?” The federal government has made a lot of big funding announcements for science funding going out in the Arctic, which is excellent.

We were very hopeful, as a result of that, that our ships were going to be fully booked this season, but when we went to the community members on the ground—because the fund flows through the communities, as it should a lot of the time—they wanted, for instance, to do hydrography in the marine protected area near Paulatuk and Tuktoyaktuk. Despite there being enough money in what was announced to do that kind of work, the money that was flowing isn't available yet and might not be available for several years.

It's expensive to run ships in the north. To do marine science, you need ships. Most of the science that needs to be done is in nearshore regions. We're the only organization that can provide those ships, yet we're constantly struggling to build the programs together through whatever different pockets are available in order to do it. It's a constant problem that we're hoping is going to get better, but it requires serious, increased long-term investment and, as Adrian said, a whole-of-ecosystem approach.

Very briefly, part of the other issue is that we're successful because we work under the cogeneration of knowledge framework. The communities lead and we follow, and we take a whole-of-ecosystem approach in our work. That's really hard to fund when you're going to ISED, DFO, Agriculture Canada or whomever else, looking for funding. Everything is very specific in terms of what the research is going to be and what's going to come out of it. That doesn't work well in a northern framework, when we need to learn more about the ecosystems more broadly.

Even though our model works, it's very hard to get it funded under the current federal funding regime.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

What you're saying is quite interesting, Mr. Henheffer.

Mr. Dakins, you painted a very compelling picture in your presentation to the committee, which seemed well fleshed out.

Does your organization report regularly to the department or its scientists? Does Fisheries and Oceans Canada listen to your recommendations?

[Dion Dakins]

I serve on the Atlantic seal advisory committee, ASAC, which is chaired by the DFO.

What I will say is that, for the better part of two decades, industry has been sending strong signals to the DFO about the precautionary approach and the overall management regime. What is our mandate, as Canada, with respect to pinnipeds, whether on the west coast or on the east coast? We have scientific proof that the grey seal is going to extinct four species, and we're sitting here, not accepting the responsibility to implement measures to rectify that.

This is a shared problem with the Americans. The Americans have been talking to us. I've spoken to numerous people down in Nantucket and through Maine. They are frustrated with the Canadian seals' coming down and eating the American fish. The only level of engagement that we have is a request to find out if we can use seal in bait under—and potential fallout from—the MMPA.

I think we have to take the responsibility now for future generations. We have to definitely tie in with the local observations of the people who are out in the environment, whether it's in the north or on the east coast. They see what's happening. They saw the cod collapse coming long before the DFO saw it. We need to incorporate that first-hand experience into the management model. We need to take the responsibility to rectify the imbalance that's been created in our ecosystem.

This is not unheard of in other jurisdictions or areas. You could look to Australia and what it's done with the kangaroo in the case of desertification and loss of land. The rangelands were going to be destroyed.

It's an education approach to letting the rest of the world know that if you stand for banning the use of this sustainable resource, you're actually against the environment. You are against the world. They are putting people in marginal positions where they're destroying tradition and culture. They're impacting the food security of the local people. They're not respecting the rules around the Convention on Biological Diversity.

There are a number of buttons that could be pressed, levers that could be pulled and dials that could be turned in order to help rectify and restore the balance in the ecosystem. We now have an ecosystem problem. This is not about commercial seal fisheries. This is about restoring balance, saving the planet and saving the northwest Atlantic ecosystem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madam Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today. I have so many questions. I was having a hard time deciding which ones would be most important for today, to be honest.

I'd like to ask a few more of you, Mr. Dakins.

One of the biggest things that we're talking about is the lack of the information that we need so that we can ensure that we're all talking about the same things, so that we have the education so that misinformation can be countered. I'm just trying to get clarification.

This is, I think, our fifth meeting around pinnipeds, and I'm starting to notice some information that's not jibing. I just want to get some clarification around the diet of seals. I keep hearing about the amount of food that's being eaten by seals in Norway. I'm using that as a comparison with the inaccuracies of what we are seeing around what seals are eating along Canadian coasts. I'm also learning that there are differences in the environments that would result in those different eating habits. Can you speak to that a little so that we can understand?

If we're saying that we need to reconcile the differences.... Perhaps I'm wrong, but there seems to be an assumption that our numbers for what seals are eating along the coast of Newfoundland, for example, would be the same as for what's being eaten along the coast of Norway. Some of the information I'm getting now is showing that those are not necessarily two comparable numbers to be looking at. Perhaps you could clarify for me the information that you were talking about specifically around that, please.

[Dion Dakins]

I think it's about reconciling the difference, because being out by a kilo a day is an astronomical amount of biomass removed from the environment. The Norwegian number is based on the caloric requirements for harp seal in the wild, which do swim some 15,000 kilometres each per year. We have that data from DFO. We've seen that they go up to the eastern coast of Greenland and back. We know that harp seals now are showing up in rivers and eating char in places where they never were before.

Like any problem we have in our lifetime, the first thing you need to do is define it, and we haven't defined the problem. We have pockets of science here, and I think one thing we could all agree on is that immediately a gap analysis be conducted of what we do know, what the strength of that data is and what we do not know.

Invite dialogue with other countries that are challenged with the same problem that we are. An abundance of pinnipeds and impacts on fisheries is not solely a Canadian problem. This has been experienced through everywhere pinnipeds exist, and I think until we desensitize the topic, we won't get to even being able to scrape at the question that you're asking because what people in the environment are seeing.... Certainly I don't spend the majority of my time out there, but I talk to people every day who are out there. They're seeing a lot of crab being eaten and a lot of shrimp being eaten, which doesn't really provide a lot of benefit to harp seals in its consumption. Dr. George Rose would have said it's the equivalent of eating popcorn. Why are they eating so much shrimp?

Again, I'd like to come back to the situation in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, where we know the grey seal is going to extinct four species and we are not responding. This is my fourth committee now that I've sat through and we have seen recommendations that have not been implemented.

[Gil Thériault]

Thank you, Mr. Dakins. It's helpful information. I'm just trying to make sure that at the end of this we have the most sound recommendations possible for us to be able to put forward to the government, for us to move forward with, because I think one of the biggest challenges we have, which is coming up over and over again, is the gaps in data and information. I'm wanting to make sure that the information that we're receiving is clear in time for the recommendations coming forward.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here. In the information that's coming my way, another thing that's coming up is around the fact that, if we look at an ecosystem-based approach, when we're looking at pinniped harvesting—I agree with so much of what's being said, to be clear—there's the importance of our looking at not only what pinnipeds are eating but the part that pinnipeds play when looking at it more holistically.

Perhaps this could be a question to our witnesses from the Arctic Research Foundation.

I know you work closely with Inuit and so on. Do you have any thoughts around the importance of a sustainable ecosystem-based approach in the decisions that we make on how to best move forward?

[Adrian Schimnowski]

I think it's certainly important to remove that snapshot-type science. Traditionally when there's open water you're doing research, but the ice in between the seasons is so critical and probably more productive than just open water.

If you involve programs that involve communities, research teams, commercial groups, where you have year-round, and not just one month a year, you get a better picture of what's really happening. Studying the ecosystem, you need to understand migration patterns and how far the animals are going, but not just the migration patterns specifically of the seal. What about the food they're eating? What are the fish doing? Where are they migrating? Where are the breeding grounds for shrimps? Opportunistically the seal are going to be looking for where the food is easiest to get to.

In some areas it might be all shrimp. In other areas it may have a more commercial influence, but if you have a snapshot, you're never really going to know. If you have that throughout the year, it also creates an industry, an opportunity for communities where capacity can be built to support that type of research.

Then you have true traditional knowledge, co-production design programs that have meaning for many: for industry, for researchers, but mainly for the communities in the north. Therefore, a balance is required, and I see that's the only way of doing it to understand that balance in the ecosystem.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

Ms. Barron, we ran a bit over time.

I have to go now to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'm looking to get six minutes, since the last one went six minutes.

Mr. Schimnowski, I'm fascinated by something you said, and perhaps you could explain to the committee why it's happening. You said that when seals are being hunted in the north, they're sinking.

Can you explain that to the committee?

[Adrian Schimnowski]

We are what we eat. For some reason, the seals are not as big, as fat, as what they used to be. In some areas the seals are mainly focusing on shrimp. It's like eating popcorn. The shrimp are not as nutritious and not as fatty, so the seals don't have that energy. Literally, when the hunters are hunting them, the seals are sinking.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

For years, DFO scientists would say they were not finding the bones of cod when they did the stomach contents of seals on the east coast, because, of course, what keeps them fat is they go after the organs. They go after the liver and the organs. In the absence of that kind of fatty diet, they're eating whatever else they can find. Is that right?

[Adrian Schimnowski]

That would be a safe assumption, yes.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

What effect is that having on the other stocks?

[Adrian Schimnowski]

That's a good question.

I don't think we have enough research to understand what that is. That's when you have to look at the ecosystem totally, and look at fish migration, food sources and changes in water temperature. Global warming and rising water temperatures, we know these are happening faster in the Arctic. You can talk to the people in the local communities. They can say over and over again what the changes are, and how quick they are. We don't know.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Dakins, in 2021, DFO's lead assessment biologist, Dr. Dwyer, who you may be familiar with, said that seals are not having any discernible impact in the predation of pelagic fish. Then, a year later, the minister came out and said that “seals eat fish”, and that obviously there needs to be more study.

Is the reason the minister thinks there needs to be more study because Dr. Dwyer said that they aren't having an impact, or is it something else?

[Dion Dakins]

I think that the minister's announcement came on the heels of the Atlantic seal science task team report, which I have given three quotes from. We know our scientific data is woefully inadequate to determine what role, negative or positive, harp seals are having in the local environment.

Our recommendation would be that we immediately strike a task team, a task force, an action group or a group of people who are going to sit down to pore through this and come up with ways to collect more data, analyze the data and respond with urgency to what I believe is potentially the collapse of the northwest Atlantic because of overpredation.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I understand that, in the north, there probably hasn't been a lot of science, but on the east coast, there's been a lot of science. There was a royal commission on seals in 1986. There was the fisheries resource conservation council established in 1993 that did extensive studies on seals and called, in 1999, for the seal population to be half of what it was then. Of course, it's almost doubled in size since then.

There have been, as you say, numerous committee reports here that have studied it—four or five, at least. There is science that came out on grey seals last year from DFO scientists saying exactly what you said, that we're going to see the loss of species in the gulf. I have 122 pages of the DFO seal stomach samples that I got through an access to information request or an Order Paper request.

DFO, at the Atlantic mackerel advisory committee, put out a slide that showed that 50% of what grey seals eat in the winter is mackerel, of all things, which weren't supposed to be here in the winter, and 80% is cod and herring in the summer.

Isn't there enough science to determine that we need fewer seals?

[Dion Dakins]

Mr. Perkins, you are perhaps one of the most knowledgeable people on this issue now in Canada. You're in the top 2%, for sure. You've taken the time to read the studies.

What Canada needs to do is synthesize this into a package that we can use to promote the severity of the problem. Yes, we have a lot of data. We need to follow the recommendations of the ASSTT, which was struck by this government. It says it's inadequate to fully understand, so this is a go-forward. I don't think we have time to waste.

There was a recommendation to cull 70,000 grey seals in 2012. We haven't taken—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Anything.

[Dion Dakins]

We haven't taken 10,000 out of the environment in that period of time of 11 years.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

If I could just get one more question, you mentioned—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Your five minutes are up. I know that you commented on somebody's having six minutes in the first round. That's the length of time questioners get in the first round.

The second round is five minutes starting off, and we'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.