Evidence of meeting #65 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was population.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
You have two seconds left, and that's not enough time to ask a question or get an answer.
NDP
Taylor Bachrach NDP Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC
Two seconds is just long enough to say thank you.
I'll pass it back to the chair.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
There you go. Thank you.
We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.
My first question is for Mr. Haug.
Mr. Haug, you started by talking about the main principle in Norwegian management of seals and whales. Does Norway have a framework for managing marine mammal populations?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
Do you mean management objectives?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
Yes, I think you could say the objective is to keep them at the level where you can have a sustainable harvest from the populations harvested. We have 17 whale species in Norway, but only one is hunted. We have seven seal species, but only one is hunted today on a commercial scale. We have very clear rules for the hunt of both minke whales and harp seals that secure sustainable harvests. That's it.
In Norway, we don't have a culling program. We have seen that too much sealing can reduce the seal populations—as we saw, for instance, for harp seals in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s. However, when sealing became less profitable, the sealing more or less disappeared. Today, there are only one to three seal vessels going out every year, and the numbers they take are very low.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Thank you, Mr. Haug, for that. You have a management protocol for marine mammals.
What are the trade implications under the Marine Mammal Protection Act for Norway, Norway being the number two supplier of seafood in the U.S. market? Are there any trade implications for Norway for its harvesting of marine mammals?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
No, there aren't, as far as I know.
The biggest problem in Norway, as we see it now, is that we need to reduce bycatch. We reduce bycatch of harbour porpoises by using pingers on the gillnets. That's the only implication we've had regarding trade problems with the U.S. Our sealing and whaling have never been problematic in that respect.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Mr. Haug, if you had the population of pinnipeds in Norway that we have in eastern Canada, which is close to 10 million pinnipeds, what do you think the effect would be on the seafood production of wild fish in Norway?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
It's a very complicated question, because, as Carl Walters just said, the ecosystem and ecosystem models are terribly complicated. We know very little about what would happen if we reduced the current populations to half of what they are today.
I think your question is impossible to answer.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Okay.
If your grey seal population on the Norwegian coast went from 5,000 grey seals to approximately 400,000—which we have in the Gulf of St. Lawrence—what would the Norwegian approach be?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
I think the approach would be increased quotas in the hunt we already have for grey seals.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
I have a question on seals and sea lions in the estuaries and rivers that are salmon habitats.
What would happen in Norway if you had pinnipeds in your salmon rivers and estuaries? Would the Norwegian people put up with that, or would they take action?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
It is legal to shoot harbour seals that go up salmon rivers. The problem is not very large in Norway, because the numbers of what we call “coastal seals”—harbour seals and grey seals—are quite low. We have seen harbour seals going up some salmon rivers, and they can be shot.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL
Mr. Haug, on seals and cod, you said they prey on the same species, so there is a relationship. I guess capelin would be the main prey that seals and cod have in common.
If the harp seal population were decreased by half, what would the effect be on capelin and subsequently on cod?
Scientist Emeritus, Institute of Marine Research
Again, that's very difficult to answer.
Capelin is one important species, both for cod and harp seals, but as you know, capelin fluctuates tremendously both with and without harvest, and they have other options. Krill and crustaceans are probably more important for seals than capelin are in most years.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you.
You've gone a bit over time, Mr. Small.
We'll now go to Mr. Hanley for five minutes or less, please.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thanks to all of the witnesses.
I want to ask some questions of you first, Dr. Walters.
Just to step back a bit and get a better picture from your point of view on the relationship between salmon stocks and populations of pinnipeds, what do you think are the key factors leading to salmon mortality, and how important are pinnipeds in that dynamic in the west coast ecosystem?
Professor Emeritus, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
For the majority of B.C. salmon populations in general, they're not a big factor. The key problems are localized, particularly on the south coast of B.C., where we have half of the total coastline harvest seal population in the Georgia Strait in a very small area. We also have a concentration of chinook and coho production from streams around the Georgia Strait and a very valuable fishery. There's definitely conflict in that setting.
Over the first ocean year of chinook and coho, marine mammal predation appears to account for between 30% and 50% of the total deaths of young salmon, and then for returning adult salmon, up to about 20% of the adult salmon get eaten by seals and sea lions in estuaries as they're returning to their spawning rivers. We don't think that has a large impact.
When we first saw the salmon decline starting back in the 1980s, we thought we were dealing with an overharvest problem. In fact, even when we started to look at the declining survival rates of chinook and coho in their first year in the ocean, we blamed those declining survival rates on factors other than marine mammals. It wasn't until almost 2000 that some data started to come out from Peter Olesiuk's lab and from DFO showing how much the seal and sea lion populations had grown and how much they were consuming. Then we really started to realize this was a serious issue.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you.
I think what you're saying is that it's more of a regional effect than an overall effect, but correct me if I'm wrong when you answer.
The other aspect I want to ask you about, which you talked about, is the encouragement for opening up the seal harvest somewhat—for instance by removing commercial restrictions for first nation seal harvesting. Sustainable seal harvesting could have regional success in reducing salmon stocks. That might be the more important direction, rather than trying to look for some overall population effect. Would that be accurate?
Professor Emeritus, Institute for the Oceans and Fisheries, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Yes, that is accurate.
The main need for seal reduction is in the south coast area right off of Vancouver, but there are also requests from first nations people in the north who fear that seals and sea lions are having a serious impact on a lot of the small stream populations of, in particular, chum salmon that first nations people depend on in the north as a major food source.
Unfortunately, we don't have any data to back this up. It's people saying that fish are disappearing and that the seals and sea lions are everywhere. It's that kind of evidence, which isn't strong.
Liberal
Brendan Hanley Liberal Yukon, YT
We could consider proceeding with what I think you called the adaptive management of seals. There seems to be more and more consensus—certainly more opinion coming from this committee—that that's a direction we should be moving towards.
What's the best way to measure those unknown questions and the effects, if we were to take on adaptive management more strongly? I guess you'll have to be very quick, because I don't have a lot of time left.