Fisheries Committee on May 1st, 2023

[Dr. Carl Walters]

The main method we would use to monitor whether it is succeeding is monitoring the first ocean year survival rate—the set of stocks directly—using what is called coded wire tagging. You tag a large number of small fish and you look at how many make it back. That would be the first indicator that we are successful. It would be an improvement in those survival rates.

We also monitor spawning escapements and we monitor harvests. Those spawning grounds and harvests should improve within just a few years after reduction starts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hanley.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. Lane, in your opinion, if we are to make an informed decision about pinniped management, what's our most important tool?

[Dr. Daniel Lane]

Thank you for the question, Mrs. Desbiens.

What do you mean by “decision”? Are you asking whether or not to proceed with the seal cull?

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Is the most important tool stock of the resource or its state of health?

Should we do more measurements or are the existing ones enough? Should we try something new?

[Dr. Daniel Lane]

As the other witnesses have said, we need to do measurements. It's important to see how the marine ecosystem evolves, for sure.

We have an opportunity before us. Junior scientists could be involved in the seal hunt. They could measure the resource, because they would be on the ground and could make similar observations to find out exactly what's happening. They are practically scientists. It's important that we find out what's going on.

It's also an opportunity to use this resource from a socioeconomic perspective. We could put people to work, which would be good for the economy. Some products would be good for our health. I feel we have an obligation to use this resource. We have to look at what's happening in the other—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Dr. Lane.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Mr. Bachrach for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll continue with my questions for Dr. Walters.

I'm curious as to whether there is a correlation between areas that have a large population of pinnipeds and the recovery or decline of salmon stocks in those areas. One of the examples that has been noted is the Cowichan River chinook. There is a high abundance of pinnipeds in the area surrounding the Cowichan River, yet we're seeing chinook stocks on the rebound.

Have you looked into the correlation between particularly high densities of pinnipeds and the trend of salmon populations in those areas?

[Dr. Carl Walters]

On a general coastline basis, from Washington all the way up to Alaska, the problem areas where stocks are declining are also the areas where marine mammal densities are highest.

I'm doing an analysis of the Cowichan River, which is really interesting. We calculate that there were large and growing pinniped impacts on the Cowichan stock's first ocean year survival rate that proceeded up to the 1990s. There was then a reversal in the Cowichan stock, and it unexpectedly built up very rapidly.

The calculations we have done on that stock and the different life stages suggest that the main reason for its recovery, despite continued marine mammal predation, was the substantial improvement in freshwater survival conditions because of habitat restoration efforts.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

With the permission of the chair, I'll try to sneak in a second question.

I know that salmon hatcheries concentrate the returns and releases of salmon. I'm wondering if this makes them particularly vulnerable to pinniped predation. If so, what might be the implications for the federal government's efforts under PSSI to build new hatcheries on our coast?

[Dr. Carl Walters]

The pinnipeds have definitely learned about these concentrated hatchery releases. They show up the day before the hatchery releases and pound the juvenile fish coming out of the hatcheries. However, as far as we know, that takes only a relatively small percentage of the total smolts released. Hatchery juveniles in general survive at only about half the rates of natural juvenile salmon, which are better adapted to deal with predation risks of all sorts right from day one. The dumb ones get knocked out while they're rearing under natural conditions with high predation risk.

The bottom line is that it's a complicated mixture of impacts.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach. You've gone a bit over time. Ms. Barron would be proud of you.

We have about two minutes left in this hour. I don't know if Mr. Perkins wants to ask a question in those two minutes or if we'll move on, let our witnesses go and then introduce the new witnesses.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have a quick question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

All right. You can ask one quick one, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Haug, I'd like to ask you a question. We had a DFO official here at the beginning of the study who will be coming here again in a little while. I'll quote from what she said: “Our objective is not to reduce the seal population. Just like other fisheries where we try to keep our fish at very high and heavy levels....”

When you look at the numbers that Mr. Small gave earlier for our grey seal population, which is at over 400,000—and we have somewhere in the neighbourhood of 10 million seals with the various other species—I'll tell you that it's the only species DFO is managing successfully to keep at a high level. Might that be the reason that all our other fish stocks are in such massive decline?

[Dr. Tore Haug]

It's tempting to believe that, but I don't know enough about your fish populations to give you a firm answer on that.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll fill you in. There were 2.7 million harp seals at the time of the cod collapse in 1991. Now there are over eight million. Could that be a contributor to what's going on in our waters?

[Dr. Tore Haug]

Yes, I would guess so, because we have seen exactly the opposite. We have seen an increase in the cod population, and the harp seals, well, have some problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Dr. Lane, Dr. Haug and Dr. Walters, thank you for participating and for your witness testimony today. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the committee.

We'll suspend for a moment while we switch out and start the second panel as quickly as possible.

Thank you again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I would like to welcome our witnesses for the second panel.

From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, by video conference, we have Cédric Arseneau, director, Magdalen Island area, Quebec region; and Andrew Thomson, regional director, fisheries management. Here in person we have Jennifer Buie, acting director general, fisheries resource management; and Simon Nadeau, director, marine mammals and biodiversity science.

We'll now allow for opening remarks of five minutes or less. I don't know who's doing them or if you're sharing them.

Please go ahead when you're ready.

[Jennifer Buie, Acting Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Hello and good afternoon, Mr. Chair and committee members. My name is Jennifer Buie. I'm the acting director general of fisheries resource management at Fisheries and Oceans Canada. My colleagues and I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee on behalf of the department. I think everybody has been introduced.

The minister is committed to supporting sustainable and prosperous fisheries through the use of science- and evidence-based decision-making. Accordingly, Fisheries and Oceans Canada manages fisheries with the goal of keeping stocks healthy, protecting biodiversity and fisheries habitats, and ensuring that our fisheries remain productive.

The department manages the seal harvest using the same approach as all other commercially managed fisheries, working to ensure that seal populations remain above a precautionary population level to ensure sustainability. Management decisions are based on the best available information, including peer-reviewed science and indigenous knowledge.

Based on the most recent scientific opinions, from 2018 to 2022, Greenland seal landings were 7% per year on average from a population of 425,000 seals. Grey seal landings were even lower, at 1% on average from a population of 77,300 seals. Preliminary reports for 2023 on the Greenland seal and grey seal hunts show increased landings at approximately 9.5% and 2% of their respective populations, based on the scientific data.

We are encouraged by the positive signs in market demand for seals seen this year. However, generally, the lack of market opportunities for seal products has led to fewer removals. The department is aware of the concerns from commercial fish harvesters about the impact of the seals on fish stocks. However, Canada's fisheries management framework is not intended to be used as a tool to reduce populations.

Fisheries and Oceans Canada is continuously improving its understanding of seal populations and potential impacts on fish stocks through surveys and targeted research projects, such as studies on diet and reproduction. Currently, there is only a single area where the department has scientific evidence supporting the negative impact of seal predation on commercial fish stocks. Scientific evidence has not been found linking harp seal predation to the current abundance of northern cod stocks in Newfoundland. Similarly, the department does not have evidence of pinniped predation as a key driver in Pacific salmon declines. Research, however, continues and, increasingly, the department seeks to integrate a greater number of ecosystem factors, such as oceanographic conditions and predation, into its stock assessments.

The department's commitment to seal-related science was also demonstrated by its establishment of the Atlantic seal science task team to gather input on science activities and programs related to seals and their role in the ecosystem in Atlantic Canada and Quebec. The task team's report was published in 2022, and one of its recommendations was a seal forum to bring together experts, which the minister did on November 8 to 9 in St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. The purpose of the seal summit was to explore new opportunities to expand Canada's seal products into export markets, to highlight the importance of the seal harvest to indigenous communities and to help address gaps in data regarding seal populations.

At the conclusion of the seal summit, the minister announced an open call for project proposals to increase our understanding of the role of seals in the ecosystem. DFO science is currently reviewing proposals received under this initiative. The department will continue to advance scientific research on seals, guided by the recommendations from the task team, and we will look at ways to further collaborate with industry in science activities.

On the margins of the summit, the Atlantic seal advisory committee also met. The committee is the primary consultative body for the management and development of the Atlantic seal harvest. A notable outcome of committee discussions was the establishment of a working group to review the policies and regulations that govern licensing aspects regarding the seal harvest. The review will determine what changes could be made to facilitate participation in, and reduce barriers to, the harvest. The working group has met multiple times, and it's on track to report to the Atlantic seal advisory committee at its fall meeting.

While these developments are a cause for optimism, much work needs to be done to achieve a seal harvest that is not only sustainable but prosperous. The department is firmly committed to playing a role alongside its indigenous partners and industry to advance this objective.

Thank you for your attention.

I will now be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now move on to our first round of questioning, and we'll start off with Mr. Small for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Ms. Buie.

Why does DFO have a picture of a whitecoat on its web page when the whitecoat is such a short period in the life cycle of a harp seal?