Fisheries Committee on May 8th, 2023

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

In the legislation and regulation implemented on the east coast, are there any gaps in assessing, monitoring and enforcing to ensure the intent of the beneficial ownership is being implemented?

[Jennifer Mooney]

In terms of my role.... I can't speak to enforcement, but I can say that we have implemented a number of measures to ensure that licence-holders are compliant, essentially, with the inshore regulations. On the national online licensing website, when harvesters go to pay their fees, they have to declare that they're in compliance with those regulations. As I said, we are doing spot checks and administrative reviews to ensure that licence-holders are indeed compliant with those regulations.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Ms. Barron started to touch on the survey that went out on the west coast. We heard the survey went out to the wrong people. It went to the licence-holders, not the people who are actually fishing.

Can you elaborate on why that took place, Mr. Waddell?

[Mark Waddell]

The parties on record as the owners of the licence were those who were contacted.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

It was not the actual people who were fishing. It was the owner of the licence. Was that the vessel licence or the fishing licence?

[Mark Waddell]

It was both. We engaged with and sought information from both party-based licence-holders and vessel-based licence-holders in the Pacific.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay, thank you.

I believe, Madam Mooney, that it's your responsibility—this national licensing operation and so on.

The legislation and regulations have been developed and somewhat implemented on the east coast. Why have they never been on the west coast?

[Jennifer Mooney]

I can't speak to that. Perhaps I'll turn it over to Mr. Waddell.

[Mark Waddell]

I think that historically the Pacific fisheries were developed with a different intent, and different methodology was employed. We introduced, as an organization, back in the 1960s—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do we not have the same issues now—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Arnold; we've gone over time by half a minute.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I, too, want to send my condolences to the family and to everyone associated with the tragedy on the east coast with the two fishermen losing their lives. Obviously, I'll give a shout-out to Serge Cormier and his constituents as well in respect of that tragedy.

For those watching at home, I think one thing we need to clearly articulate and identify is that there are two distinct fisheries, one on the east coast and one on the west coast, and I'm just going to focus on the east coast for a second.

I'll start with Mr. Waddell and work my way around this room and then perhaps online.

The principle of the owner-operator was enshrined into law. It is absolutely essential on the east coast in terms of ensuring that local people operate this industry and that the wealth stays in the community. For obvious reasons, the spinoffs that emerge from that are really important.

There are a couple of questions. One is what we have learned about owner-operators on the east coast in terms of what is working, what needs to be strengthened on the east coast and what we can learn in terms of that application on the west coast, knowing that there are nuances to that fishery.

I understand that there are surveys and stakeholder engagement, but I'm interested from a departmental level. What have we learned from the east coast? What can be strengthened there? How could that be applied from a departmental perspective? Not to bias any discussions or survey results, what can we learn from both the east and west coasts? How can they be strengthened on the east coast, and how do they need to be employed on the west coast?

[Mark Waddell]

What I might offer, frankly, is the tremendous value of the perceptions and the information held by licence-holders in identifying those challenges to DFO.

Certainly, when we developed the inshore regulations in conjunction with inshore harvesters, their insights into the mechanisms employed within that fishery and the relationships they hold with processing facilities across Atlantic Canada and Quebec were invaluable to the department. It was through those discussions and consultations that we were able to develop the inshore regulations in a way that sought to meet the joint objectives of both the department and the affected community, the inshore licence-holders, as well as to not overly prescribe limitations that might affect valid business relationships that are established.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Ms. Mooney, would you like to speak to that?

[Jennifer Mooney]

To add, obviously we all recognize the important value and contribution that fishers and inshore fishers play in the Canadian economy and the Canadian fishing industry.

What I will say is that, having looked now, so far, at about 23% of licence-holders in an in-depth review of licence-holders' eligibility under the inshore regulations, I would just say that, thanks to the work between licence-holders and the department, we are seeing a high degree of compliance with those regulations. I thought that was important to know.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Is there anybody on the screen who would want to...?

Go ahead, Doug Wentzell.

[Doug Wentzell, Regional Director General, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Maybe just to build on the comments of my colleagues, Mr. Chair, I would say that the department certainly benefits from the fact that these measures are in regulation right now. There is clarity around the fact that an inshore licence-holder needs to benefit from the fishery. They need to participate; they need to make decisions on that fishery, and they need to be on the vessel, etc.

It gives us a lot of clarity in terms of being able to ensure compliance, and part of that is ensuring continued education awareness. We're going to be continuing to put a priority on that, particularly as we see turnover in the fishery, with new entrants and licences changing hands, to ensure that folks understand that it is a regulatory requirement now.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Neil...?

[Neil Davis]

In terms of applicability on the west coast, I think some of the key considerations for us would just be, if we were to explore that, to approach it in the context of the history that has developed with west coast fisheries.

For example, in the absence of policies like these, for our fisheries, we have agreements that are fairly well established or long-standing, which may provide access to capital for harvesters for either licences or quota or other fishing assets.

We have examples of where licences and/or quota have been acquired by processors, and there's been, since the introduction of things like quotas, rationalization in fleets, in which quota has moved between licence-holders so they can make their fishing operations viable.

We would also want to take into account some of the elements of the way, as I understand it, the policies have been implemented on the east coast to consider things like the exemptions that are in place for certain fleets, given some of these kinds of factors, and to be clear about the objectives we're trying to achieve through the introduction of anything like the policies on the east coast for our fisheries.

Given all of that, I think if we were to go down this road, engagement with fisheries stakeholders and indigenous groups who have a significant role in commercial fisheries would be absolutely critical.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I too, on behalf of the Bloc Québécois, would like to offer our deepest condolences for those who have disappeared in the Acadian Peninsula region. Two firefighters also lost their lives in the flood disaster in our region. It is a very sad spring.

I thank the witnesses for being with us.

I have a question about the Competition Bureau. Are you able to tell me when the Competition Bureau becomes involved in the sale of a fishing licence or a processing business in the fishery?

[Mark Waddell]

With regard to the sale of a licence itself, I do not believe the Competition Bureau would have a significant role. What we have seen encouragement for the Competition Bureau to turn its attentions to is the sale of processing facilities.

With that said, the Competition Bureau, as an entity of ISED, does have different dollar thresholds and different concentration thresholds that it explores within Canada's industries, and it determines those as ISED directs it to.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I think it normally comes into play when the deal is $1 billion or more.

Do you look favourably on the idea of fisheries becoming a natural resource on a par with timber, minerals, and fossil fuels in the context of the Competition Bureau?

[Mark Waddell]

I think we have, in part, undertaken the beneficial ownership survey, since we have a factual baseline of information, to subsequently have that public policy discussion within Canada's fisheries—with affected stakeholders, parliamentarians and others—to determine when an appropriate level of foreign ownership may or may not prove to be within Canada's fisheries.