Fisheries Committee on May 11th, 2023

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

If this corporate concentration exists the way you speak of it, what would the solution be? It seems like a complicated outfit.

[Andrew Olson]

It's going to take some complex work.

One thing you need to think about is this: A licence is an opportunity to go fishing. We can look at it as an opportunity to go fishing, which is what it should be. It's like a driver's licence. You get a driver's licence and you get to go drive your car, because you've taken the test and paid the fee.

Licences in the Pacific region have become a physical asset, just like real estate. That's why you've seen the same thing happen in real estate speculation, with investors bringing in foreign dollars that may or may not be based in real business. There's foreign and investor speculation through money that's being laundered.

It's a complex thing, but it needs to be dealt with sooner rather than later. If it continues, it's just going to get worse.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for four minutes or less.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

It's great to see the three of you here in our last panel. It's been very informative.

We talked about owner-operators on this panel and the previous panel and how important they are to the east coast. In fact, it's enshrined in law. It's a massive move forward in terms of communities and community wealth, and it will constantly need to be improved upon.

Something really tweaked me. I believe it was you, Mr. Olson. I think you might have referred to it as well, Dr. Silver. You talked about foreign concentration. I come from an island where, in the first part of the 20th century, in the first five decades, one company owned an enormous number of mines, and they were called “the company”. The company also had the company stores that were owned by the company. The homes where the workers lived were called “company homes”. That wasn't too long ago in terms of the concentration of corporate wealth and how things consolidate and how choices are few, in particular for people who work in the mining industry.

It got me thinking about B.C. I don't want to say there are absolutely 1,000% comparisons here, but it got me thinking, Dr. Silver, on a couple of things in your work. You talked about the research you've done, and I'm curious. Have you done any modelling with respect to owner-operators in B.C.? If they were to have a more robust presence in B.C., what would that mean in terms of the supply chain money staying in communities and money staying with local fishers and local entrepreneurs?

Is there any data you could share or at least pontificate on if we were to look at that model? I can't give the parameters if we switch to 50% or 75% or 30%, but I'm curious because I would suspect that a profound number would be attached for local communities where we're consistently talking about rural economic strategies and coastal economic strategies. To me, the heart of those rural economic strategies is keeping money in the community.

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

Thanks.

I appreciate your intro. It sounds like you're from Cape Breton.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

What gave it away?

[An hon. member]

Don't brag.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

No, I don't brag.

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

I'm a born and raised Nova Scotian.

I know that Ms. Sutcliffe from the first round has done some work to look at the sort of multiplier—

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

She's also going to send me some information.

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

Yes, I bet she will.

I think what you're talking about is the sort of multiplier effect if we.... In short, I don't have specific numbers for you, but the way I would approach this question is to say that lots of coastal history and fisheries history in B.C. tell us that communities up and down the coast were once thriving and had lots of active vessels tied up on the dock and small or medium-sized processing plants that were running many months of the year. People needed to get their nets fixed and people needed to get their engines serviced for their vessels. That's evidence to show us how once, when the structure of the fishery was different than it is today, there were thriving businesses associated with the fishery that were well beyond the harvesters themselves and kept those communities active and busy.

Lots of different communities up and down the coast, like Prince Rupert and Ucluelet, are visibly not the same as they once were. To help illustrate what I know Tasha will send you, that's how I'd answer that question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway. You were a couple of seconds over.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for four minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lansbergen, a little earlier you said that you were more concerned about protecting the resource and about problems to do with certain resources.

According to the testimony we are hearing, there is a trend toward vertical exploitation, with competition ensuring a fair price. Yet we're sensing that competition is crumbling at the hands of a few companies which are taking advantage of this strategy.

When it comes to protecting the fish, don't you think that all of this becomes even more problematic, because you have less power over the people who are harvesting the fish?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I think there are a couple of elements here.

I think we need more data on how much concentration there is, and also on the behaviour we see from companies in the sector. If we're responsible stewards, then the resource will be there and it will be sustainable for future generations. Canada is second in the world in terms of third party certification of sustainable fisheries management practices by the industry, so I'm not too worried about that.

As I said, we need more data to better inform some of these questions.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Silver, I'd like to hear your thoughts on an idea that might be promising.

Do you think it would be a good idea if the fishery were considered a natural resource by the Competition Bureau, as are timber, minerals and fossil fuels? Could the Competition Bureau play an important role if the fishery was part of its mandate?

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

That's an interesting question.

Fisheries are a public resource to be managed to the benefit of Canadians. In preparation for today, I dug up the way that a country like New Zealand looks at this. They have very valuable fisheries resources. They actually have an overseas investment office, in addition to a fisheries minister, looking at any foreign interest that wants to buy quota or become partial owners of fishing entities and processing entities.

I'll just quote something to you. This is a briefing document produced by the U.S. State Department. This

[investment oversight] legislation, together with the Fisheries Act [in New Zealand], requires consent from the relevant Ministers in order for an overseas person to obtain an interest in a fishing quota, or an interest of 25 percent or more in a business that owns or controls a fishing quota.

I don't think anybody is arguing that there should be no foreign investment, no element of foreign ownership in the fisheries. As a researcher, I find that it's just not as transparent as one might want, even to be able to come to a committee like this and answer questions and bring evidence.

We know that other countries that have valuable fisheries resources treat them as strategic resources, because they're valuable. There are also these questions related to food sovereignty and that sort of stuff that come up as well.

I think there are lessons to be learned from legislation and approaches in other countries that see fisheries as a public resource more than as a strategic one

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. That's exactly your four minutes, gone just like that.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for four minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses—Dr. Silver, Mr. Lansbergen and Mr. Olson. My first question is for Mr. Olson.

Mr. Olson, first, thank you for all the work you do through Nuu-chah-nulth Seafood and the St. Jean's Cannery. It's nice to see you in Ottawa while I'm in Nanaimo right now.

We heard from the Coastal First Nations. In a letter to DFO, they wrote about how corporate and investor concentration and growing offshore ownership of licences and quota are driving up prices and the way that this licence concentration and offshore ownership are threatening west coast fisheries and directly impeding the important process of reconciliation with indigenous people and their ability to access fisheries.

I'm wondering if you can share a little bit around some of those thoughts we've been hearing from others.

[Andrew Olson]

As part of an organization that's based on owning and managing licences and quota for fishermen to participate in the fishing business, I try to buy or access more licenses and quota for our company so more fishermen can participate in the fishing business. I can't buy licences and quota in the current market without a subsidy from the federal government in the form of a grant that offsets the cost. Otherwise, the return on the investment doesn't make sense for my directors and I can't take it to them as a viable business investment.

It doesn't make sense, and that's the situation that groups like the Coastal First Nations are in, because they're not getting that grant. This is the money they've been given. They have a limited amount to spend, and that's what they're using, and the budget of the licences continues to increase from the time the agreement is signed until they're out on the market to buy the licences. Some of these things have gone up by 100% to 150%. How will they be able to compete with money that may or may not be real?

I think that's one of the things we need to keep in mind here. The speculation is just like what you see in the Vancouver real estate market, and we know that this money is not real.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Olson.

To clarify, the letter I was referencing was addressed to Minister Joyce Murray.

My next question is to Dr. Silver.

We heard just now from Mr. Lansbergen—and we've heard from many others—something that we're all aware of, which is the need for more information and more data. I'm wondering if you can elaborate a bit on some of these thoughts and on the importance—or if you feel it is important—for us to have a public and transparent registry that clearly articulates who owns the licences and so on.

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

Thank you for the question.

There are a few reasons I would advocate that policy. The first is that as a researcher and someone who occasionally gets called to speak with folks like you, I would like to be able—independent from parliamentary proceedings and from DFO—to bring data and evidence that answers in specific ways, and beyond the single year that I've been able to look at, the research patterns that we can see in ownership and how licences and quotas are being used. There's the research piece and being able to bring evidence into the conversation.

In fisheries management and in its work, DFO wants to make decisions about all sorts of things based on evidence. It makes decisions about total allowable catch per year based on biological and ecological data, and it evaluates year after year the fisheries and the health of the stocks based on that data.

It would be wonderful in parallel to have data against which social, economic and cultural considerations can get assessed and evaluated. It would allow for a more systematic consideration of socio-economic and cultural aspects of the fisheries if this sort of information were available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for four minutes or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses again.

I'll start with Dr. Silver.

Dr. Silver, you mentioned that there are 38 access-rich portfolios in B.C. with 20 or more licences, and six of those have 50 or more.

Would you be able to provide the committee with a summary of those access-rich portfolios? It would be very beneficial to this committee.

[Dr. Jennifer Silver]

Yes, I can do that. In fact....

The short answer is yes, because I don't want to take up any more of your time.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Do you have any idea why it is so complicated to try to sort out who owns what in the work that you had to go through? You basically had to create software systems in order to sift through the data.

Why would the department that is responsible for this not have a better tracking system?