Fisheries Committee on May 15th, 2023

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'll give the floor to Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Sproul, you mentioned a number of foreign corporate interests that are buying buyers and other parts of the industry, but what about China? For example, on the south shore, I'm seeing China buy an awful lot of our buyers. What's the impact of that? I understand they also control the freight forwarder at the Halifax airport.

[Colin Sproul]

Thanks for the question, Mr. Perkins. I'm really happy to hear you raise that issue.

I think that one of the most important things that government can do is ensure national Canadian control of our logistics chain within the country. It's not something that should be privately controlled in any form, and it puts everybody under the influence of the people who own the logistics. Locally, Atlantic ChiCan in southwest Nova Scotia has bought at least six of its local competitors over the last year or year and a half. It shows that attempt to consolidate.

I think it bears pointing out that Chinese entry into the marketplace for seafood in Canada has been beneficial in some ways to the industry, but we need to strike a balance between making Canada open for business and making pathways for our products to new markets in Asia. We also need to protect the interests of fishermen and the sovereignty of our supply chain from Yarmouth to China.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

These are under provincial licence—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bernatchez, before I go any further, could you tell me what species the owner-operators you represent fish? Do you represent owner-operators who fish crab, for example?

[Claudio Bernatchez]

Yes, absolutely. The owner-operators I represent fish pretty much everything in the Gulf: crab, shrimp, groundfish, everything in there.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

In recent years, crab licences have become exorbitantly expensive, as you said earlier. The same is true for lobster licences, but my questions are more related to the crab fishery. You also said that when licences are held by companies or fishers from other regions, it weakens our fisheries and causes us to lose expertise.

I've had crab licence owners who have left my region to go to yours. I think you're aware of that. So we've lost that expertise in our region, but we've also lost jobs, captains and deckhands.

New Brunswick has a different residency requirement of only six months, as you probably know, whereas Quebec's is two years. Do you think that rule is fair?

What do you think would happen if fishers from New Brunswick or elsewhere were to buy licences from you, in Quebec, and brought them back to New Brunswick? What would your reaction be?

[Claudio Bernatchez]

As I said in my speech, I'm all for free enterprise. So I would expect that to happen. We aren't immune to that.

To answer your question, Mr. Cormier, if the regulations put in place by DFO applied uniformly across the country, even in the different regions of the same province, there wouldn't be such surprises.

I don't understand why the residency requirements are different from one province to another. I don't understand why constraints are imposed on different regions of the same province to carry out licence transactions. It makes no sense to me.

I could also tell you about the depth limits for fishing certain species. Why is it so different from one place to another?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. MacPherson, it's the same kind of question. In 2019, there was a lobster fisherman from P.E.I., Brody DesRoches, who bought a crab licence from my region for a couple of million dollars. The price tag was probably between $10 million and $15 million. At that time, DFO said that all the rules were followed.

Do you believe that, and do you know that case?

[Ian MacPherson]

Certainly the price of lots of licences is a big concern. It would be interesting to see the economics on that, and, I guess, how many other bids there were. What were those bids in terms of the true market value for a licence like that?

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I guess my question is more on whether you think all the rules were followed in the purchase of that licence.

[Ian MacPherson]

I don't know the specifics of that, but one thing that harvester groups were collectively advocating was very tough and rigorous rules that had to be followed. You get into confidentiality, obviously—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Of course. I understand that. My father was a lobster fisherman for almost all his life. As you said earlier, lobster licences are sky-high, if I can say so. They're worth a lot now. It's difficult, I think, for the next generation, the younger generation, to buy a licence. It's difficult for them to go to the bank and have a credit margin or whatever—a loan.

We have some programs for first nations that give them the opportunity to buy permits. It's all good. Do you think we can also have some kind of program like that for the younger generation of fishermen, who want to keep this tradition going and be able to buy a licence? Do you think we should put in place some programs across Canada to make sure that the younger generation can continue fishing?

[Ian MacPherson]

Absolutely. We have quite a good program on Prince Edward Island, I must say. It's not so much on the financing, but it's more to teach the skills of what you need to do and how to run your business to be successful and survive. I've had calls from other organizations, and we've shared that information—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Here's a quick question: Do you think new fishing regulations will make sure that all those side deals that go on sometimes won't happen again, or are they still happening?

[Ian MacPherson]

Our concern is that they're still happening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Excuse me, Mr. Cormier. Your time is up, but we can ask Mr. MacPherson to send that answer in writing to the committee.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bernatchez, in the context of your testimony and your comments, are you surprised to know that fishers and fishing organizations are asking to testify confidentially? Does that surprise you?

[Claudio Bernatchez]

I can't tell you why there are people who want to testify confidentially. I hope that we can all feel comfortable testifying. I believe that we have nothing to hide, at least that's what I hope. Let's be transparent. Let's make sure that together we can continue to develop a fishing industry in Canada that takes all realities into account, but let's do it in a consistent way.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

You mentioned regulation earlier. Regulation means penalties; penalties mean oversight in order to enforce them. Can you confirm for me that there would have to be more enforcement staff on the ground to enforce penalties?

Can this be part of a financial audit framework for companies and investment corporations?

[Claudio Bernatchez]

I don't have an answer for how to do it.

I think that if our government had more resources to enforce regulations, we could avoid some of the situations that have been experienced, such as the ones we've heard about today and others to come. Otherwise, as in everything else, if no one maintains order, chaos will ensue.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you think financial penalties would be necessary?

[Claudio Bernatchez]

As far as I know, the financial penalties sometimes imposed on violators are really—

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

They don't do much.