Fisheries Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Christensen, if fishing families cannot make a living under the current regime—there's a gap there in terms of what they're able to live on—what expense to the government or governments does that gap represent? Do you have any idea of how much the government would need to come up with to close the gap because the current system leaves fishers really under-compensated?

[Dr. Villy Christensen]

No, I can't answer that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Ms. Strobel or Mr. Mirau...?

[Sonia Strobel]

I don't have figures before me, but I think it would be very interesting to find those.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Christensen, if you could just confirm.... I'm going to lease quota to somebody. They pay up front the price that I'm giving them; they are price-takers and not price-makers, but nobody knows what the landed value is going to be before the person is basically committed to renting that quota. Is that correct?

[Dr. Villy Christensen]

That is very often the case, and there are a number of cases where fishers, after the season, have owed money to the licence-holder or owner.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mr. Mirau, you mentioned that you deal with about 300 independent harvesters. What makes them independent?

[Brad Mirau]

What makes them independent is that they own their own boat licences. I do provide some quota to them, but I will tell you that the only people I have contracts with are people I've loaned money to in order to buy their vessel. I would take a mortgage on their boat. Yes, it says that they will sell fish to me, but I also provide them language that says they will receive the same value as I will pay to any other fisherman. I have never had a complaint. We have a very loyal fleet.

On the leasing portion that you talk about, there are so many different deals. Fishermen make their own deals with licence-holders; some of them finance each other and some companies pay licences. There's no standard price.

In my case, there has never been a fisherman left owing me at the end of the season, because my pool operates to spread the risk across myself, licence-holders and the fishermen.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, sir.

I'll go back to you, Ms. Strobel.

Do you have any sense as to the difference in income between the fishers who supply you—those 45 fishing families—versus some of the other fishers who are working the coast?

[Sonia Strobel]

We do get asked that question quite often: Can we give a simple answer to how much more our fishing families get paid?

It varies from species to species and year to year. We work individually with the families to figure out what a living wage would be for them that year and what their costs are. We help them figure out their costs and figure out what a living wage would be. Across the board, we find out what the ground price is, because they may be selling part of their catch elsewhere. We do know that we're able to pay more consistently across the board. It varies from 10% to 300%—anywhere in there—depending on species.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Mr. Christensen, it's been said here a few times that the DFO's focus seems to be managing fishing efforts versus managing the sustainability of fish stocks. Would you agree with that? In other words, DFO manages people, not fish.

[Dr. Villy Christensen]

DFO is supposed to manage people, absolutely.

DFO on the west coast has a very strong mandate about conservation and seems to have much less emphasis on the socio-economic aspects of the fisheries. The balance is off.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

All right. Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Mrs. Desbiens, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. It's always very useful to hear from them.

My first question is for Ms. Strobel.

Earlier, you shed new light on the issue by talking about the reality on the ground, which is more complicated than just who owns permits or quotas on paper, and that companies don't have to own all the quotas to control the industry; anyone who works in it knows that. You said that if you had the opportunity, you would provide clarification.

I'm giving you that opportunity now.

[Sonia Strobel]

Thank you so much.

Yes, the example I provided around quota ownership was the example I wanted to bring here. Again, if a family owns some quota, it isn't necessarily enough for them to make a living, so they're often scrambling to lease additional quota to make a living for that year. That's often on the condition that they sell the fish from their own quota to the same company for whatever price they sell.

This has happened to us at Skipper Otto quite often, where someone will approach us and say, “I have quota. I would like to sell my fish to you, but I can't because you don't own quota that you can lease me to make up the rest of my year, and when I lease it from another company, I have to sell my quota to that company at their price.” It takes away that independence from the fishing family.

That's one common example I wanted to share.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

As I understand it, there are two ways to control the fishery. One is to have as many licenses in your possession as possible, and then to become the banker of the fishermen so that they can continue to fish.

What's going to happen to the fishery if this is the way it is? What will happen to fishing in outlying areas? What will happen to coastal villages which depend on the fishery? What will happen to the market for seafood products and to prices? What will happen if we keep on going on like this? Is there any hope?

[Sonia Strobel]

It feels very depressing, doesn't it? It feels very discouraging. I agree. I see fishing families like mine disappearing.

My son Oliver is here today watching as well. He wants to stay fishing, and it's very difficult for him to stay in the industry. We see that all up and down the coast. It's very hard for young people to get into fishing, to stay in their communities. It is very discouraging. We see a lot of harvesters becoming labourers. Harvesters are drawn to fishing because we are entrepreneurs, because we like to set up our operations, do things right, do things our way.

I see people nodding. Those who come from coastal communities understand that, but when we lose control of access to the resource and lose the ability to fight for the best price, then we are no longer entrepreneurs. We are merely labourers. We're losing a way of life in our fishing communities because of this.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

I'll now turn to Mr. Mirau.

This committee has heard from people who wished to testify anonymously.

What do you say to that? Why did they want to testify anonymously?

[Brad Mirau]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't hear the translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'll ask Madame Desbiens to ask the question again.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Mirau, how do you interpret the fact that, recently, witnesses wanted to testify before this committee and that they wanted to do so anonymously?

[Brad Mirau]

I'm sorry, but there is no translation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

On your screen, you can select English, French or floor. Select English.

We'll try one more time. Madame Desbiens, go ahead.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Mirau, can you comment on the fact that recently some witnesses have wished to testify anonymously to this committee?