Fisheries Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Sayara Thurston]

I think the biggest risk is not doing something. There is an upward trend in the rest of the world towards transparency and traceability. In that context, we either do something ourselves and take control, or we continue to comply with other systems.

We've already talked about the E.U. Our fishers here in Canada work largely in accordance with another system, because it's mandatory. We also see retailers setting up their own traceability system, because consumers keep asking for it. If several systems continue to be created, it will become very difficult for fishers to comply with all these systems, especially if they don't work together.

For Canada, the best thing to do would be to create a system that works for us, but also works with the markets of the world. This would reduce the work of fishers. It would also allow Canada to maintain its image in the world as a country that protects its oceans and fishers.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It would also maintain the image of a competitive country in all respects, in fact.

[Sayara Thurston]

Exactly.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

How can we align ourselves with the European Union? It's still a big machine. What are the costs? What major efforts do we have to make?

[Sayara Thurston]

The European Union's system has been in place for 10 years. We are fortunate to be in a position where we can benefit from the lessons EU countries have learned over those 10 years. Naturally, the system wasn't perfect from day one. They made changes and learned a lot. We are very lucky that we can look to their model and benefit from the lessons they learned. If a union of 28 countries can figure these issues out, I think we can do the same here.

Under the regime, all seafood-importing countries require proof from the exporting countries that the products were harvested legally and in accordance with EU standards.

We could leverage that model. About 100 countries already comply with those standards given how much fish EU countries buy from other countries. We could impose the same requirements on countries whose products we import.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We have a reputation to maintain, then.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We will now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to Dr. Hanner, Ms. Thurston and Ms. Dawson for coming today and for the information you've presented.

I want to first ask a question that I believe is perhaps best addressed to Dr. Hanner and that builds on Mr. Morrissey's question. He was asking what the EU is doing right as far as their labelling is concerned. I'm wondering if, as a result of that labelling in the EU, we're seeing less seafood from at-risk areas being mislabelled and sold as another product.

[Dr. Robert Hanner]

I believe so. Because of this level of granularity and because of the kind of testing that we can do on authenticity and region of catch, we are able to verify these claims. This is an important step.

As I mentioned, our export industry is largely in compliance with these claims. I think it really creates unfair market competition when our domestic seafood industry has to try to compete with mislabelled seafood being dumped on our markets.

We've published numerous studies showing that nearly half of all of the retail outlets we've tested sold some form of mislabelled seafood, and nearly half of the different kinds of seafood that were tested showed some evidence of mislabelling. It's a very widespread problem. If we can't even get the name right, it's not clear that we should assume that this food is safe.

There are a number of human health impacts that are also arising from mislabelled seafood. If I can't trust a supplier to even sell me the right fish, why would I believe their cold chains have remained intact?

To address these issues of geographic origin and harvesting, we have the technology to do so; we just have to have the will to implement it.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

Building on what you were just talking about, Dr. Hanner—and this question is also directed to you—my understanding is that when seafood is labelled as “wild”, the testing that's done on the seafood is different than if it had been, for example, from a farm. I'm wondering if you could share some of the potential health impacts we might see as a result of the mislabelling.

To clarify, we have wild fish that's labelled as “wild” but may not be wild, so then we don't do the testing that would give us the information about any chemicals or toxins that are in the fish, and then they get sold as such. But then people are ingesting these toxins. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the issues that arise from that mislabelling and the testing that is done as a result or not done as a result of the mislabelling.

[Dr. Robert Hanner]

That's a very good question. Thank you.

The Canadian Food Inspection Agency will do random spot-testing of declared aquaculture products—the things that are farmed and being imported into Canada—to ensure that there are not banned veterinary drug residues or other therapeutants often used by unscrupulous producers to clean up fungal infections and other potential pathogens in their farm-raised seafood.

If, for example, I am an exporter in another country who has dirty fish and I mislabel it as “wild”, I get more money for it and circumvent the screening process for these kinds of banned veterinary drugs. The assumption is that it's wild, so it shouldn't have been treated in this manner.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Ms. Thurston.

I'm wondering, Ms. Thurston, if you could speak a little bit more about how the full supply chain of traceability is a tool to let consumers make ethical choices and to address the IUU and modern slavery in the global fishing industry. Perhaps you could speak a little bit more about the labelling and how it allows consumers to make more ethical decisions when purchasing seafood.

[Sayara Thurston]

As we've talked about, right now consumers don't have access to a lot of information on seafood labels. As Dr. Hanner has spoken about, we currently use common names for dozens of species of fish, so if you are trying to avoid a certain species for ethical or health reasons, if you have an allergy or for sustainability reasons, then you don't have the power to know exactly what it is that you're eating. With the country-of-origin requirements that we currently have, consumers have no way of knowing if they are buying something that was fished in an area that they're trying to avoid.

For example, in the European Union system, if countries are suspected of not having proper fisheries management and not keeping illegal products out of their supply chain, they will give them a yellow card or a red card, kind of like in sport. One of their current red-carded countries is Cameroon, and Canada imported fish from Cameroon last year, but that's not necessarily something the consumer will have access to in terms of information.

We're not giving enough information to let consumers make those choices.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Zimmer for five minutes or less, please.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Traceability is indeed a very interesting topic to me. I come out of a history in agriculture and served on the agriculture committee. Traceability is already a vast and very efficient system in Canada in our trade of animals. However, I see a huge gap in traceability when it comes to seafood, as you referred to.

I have concerns about the illegal, unreported and unregulated fishery. I have a proposed study to come to FOPO in the future. When I hear stories—I'm a member from B.C.—of fish being literally traded on the black market for cash or cocaine, I look at ways of somehow stemming that and preventing that from happening. It's also threatening some pretty significant threatened stocks as well.

I guess I would just ask you, since it seems like you've already talked about not re-creating the wheel—I believe that was you, Ms. Thurston—in more detail, what does the European system look like? This relates to what Mr. Morrissey already said.

It seems like our fishers already abide by these regulations, so what would it look like coming to Canada? How would we implement that actually in Canada?

[Sayara Thurston]

What the European Union does is ask other states that they are importing from to provide proof that their fisheries are properly managed and that they're keeping illegal products out of their supply chains. They conduct audits on those certifications as well. As I mentioned earlier, if countries are not conforming with their products, they do not allow them to sell to the European Union.

They also engage with them, however. The EU has worked with 60 countries since this program came into place to help them get in line, improve their fisheries management and get back up to scratch so that they can export their products to the European Union. It doesn't help anybody if we're just stifling trade. I think, again, that we benefit from that.

The European Union has been saying for several years, actually, that they don't want to be doing this alone. They don't want to have to carry this by themselves. The more countries that implement the same requirements, the stronger they will be.

With illegal fishing, what we don't want to do is displace the problem. We want to solve the problem.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Yes. I don't know how much detail you know about what that actually looks like. If I weren't familiar with Canadian fishers already, I'd say we're starting from scratch, but obviously that's not what's happening. We're seeing a lot of our producers already doing this when they ship fish to Europe.

Give us just an example for those watching today. What does it look like for a Canadian fishing company? They catch the fish. How does that process look from start to finish? I know we don't have a lot of time, but just do your best to explain what that looks like.

[Sayara Thurston]

Sure. What we're basically looking for are key data elements to follow a product through a supply chain. Essentially the who, what, where and how a fish is caught; the type of gear used; the date it was caught; the vessel information; the company information for importers or exporters; and having all that information follow that product through the supply chain.

It's just like ordering a package online now. You can see the various steps it goes through to get to you. It's a matter of following it through with electronic records to keep a record of that data and also enforcing it to make sure that this kind of data isn't tampered with.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Does the data involve a geotag, where that fish was actually caught specifically?

[Sayara Thurston]

I think there are various levels of granularity in terms of different industries. I'm not sure exactly in 100% of cases.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

I just have a couple more questions because you're familiar.

Mr. Hanner, you spoke to this as well—the illegal, unreported and unregulated aspect of it. What effects would enforcing traceability in Canada have on that particular black market industry that exists here in Canada?

[Dr. Robert Hanner]

That's a great question.

What we're seeing in food generally is an increase of organized crime infiltrating our food supply. Traditionally, they would trade in weapons and narcotics, but there are stiff penalties and a lot of investigations to uncover that kind of fraud, so increasingly these criminal organizations are turning to our food supply where we don't have criminal penalties, and the fines are often much less than the profit that they're making.

With this kind of traceability and enforcement, we would hopefully stop seeing things like critically endangered scalloped hammerhead fins showing up in traditional Chinese restaurants and grocery stores. It would hopefully help protect some of the species that are at risk and are being fraudulently laundered into our markets. It would also help decrease unfair market competition for our own domestic suppliers, but that would require a will to enforce some of the laws.

Interestingly, in the United Kingdom, after the horse meat scandal, they switched from simply levelling civil fines against fraudsters to actually taking on criminal prosecutions. This seems like it's had an impact on minimizing some of the deliberate fraud that's been taking place, given that there are real penalties involved there today, which, frankly, we lack here.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer. You're a little bit over time, but we like to try and get the answer when a question is asked.

I'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today.

I'll start with Ms. Thurston.

I want to follow up on your discussion with Mr. Morrissey about the testing you conducted, but first, I want to ask about something else.

I know we are talking about Canadian fisheries, but I'd like to focus on the Atlantic region, where my riding is. What are you seeing when it comes to traceability? Would you say things are being done well, or do significant gaps still exist?

Specifically, I'm curious about the two species that are probably the most important to my region, crab and lobster. Are you seeing gaps there? Conversely, are we on the right track in terms of ensuring product traceability from ocean to plate, throughout the entire supply chain?