Fisheries Committee on Feb. 15th, 2022

[Paul Lansbergen]

Well, it's kind of paradoxical. On one hand we're saying that the information is there and it's just not getting down to the consumer, but what are the costs of putting that in place? There are the upfront costs of changing labels. There are the ongoing costs of the paper or the computer systems that operators use, right from the small-scale fishers through to the small retailer or restaurant. How do you make all those systems integrated? Those can be some big costs. Ultimately, someone has to pay for it. Is it someone along the supply chain, such as the small-scale fisher, as Ms. Strobel says, or is it going to be the end consumer?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

In terms of third party certification for sustainability, is there a logo on the product for that? How can consumers look for sustainable products?

[Paul Lansbergen]

As I mentioned earlier, there is a Marine Stewardship Council logo, a blue logo, on products, but companies have to pay extra to use that “chain of custody” logo, as it's called. They can have certified product without using the logo, but then the consumer wouldn't necessarily know it unless it's said somewhere else, whether it be in store packaging or something like that.

On the wild-capture fishery side, MSC is the gold standard logo.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you have any concerns about any issues that were raised in the minister's mandate letter, in terms of how it could affect our industry and labelling as we're trying to get our products into the international market?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I try to be a “glass half full” kind of guy. When I look at the mandate letter, I see phrases about these [Technical difficulty--Editor] and sustainable fisheries, and I think there's a lot of opportunity with the blue economy strategy to help us realize our full growth potential in creating more value from what we harvest today.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you think there's an abundance of ENGO participation in the labelling aspect of the fishery, and do you think that's beneficial or detrimental to fishing harvester families?

[Paul Lansbergen]

It's a good question. There will always be organizations that will be critical of various sectors for this, that and the other thing. I think having dialogue is always healthy, and as long as we actively listen, as Ms. Strobel said, that's the important part of dialogue, so that it's truly two-way, or multi-way, for that matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. Your time is up.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway, who I believe is sharing his time with Mr. Morrissey.

Mr. Kelloway, I'll allow you to decide when you're turning it over to Mr. Morrissey, so if you chew up all the time, he'll be upset with you, not me.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I will definitely not chew up all the time.

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the witnesses. There have been some great questions and great responses in both panels.

I suppose my question would be around what supports or capacity building could be provided to fish harvesters and processors who need help in complying with the Canada seafood traceability requirements.

That question can be to Mr. Lansbergen, but I will stick to my 2.5 minutes so Mr. Morrissey can get his questions in as well.

[Paul Lansbergen]

I'll be very quick. I think [Technical difficulty--Editor] Atlantic fisheries fund, and perhaps that could be expanded to cover all of the coasts, to help all players in the industry innovate and adopt new technology that will enhance their capabilities to deliver the information that consumers want to see with high-quality products.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'll pass the opportunity on to our other witnesses, as well, for any thoughts or insight on that.

[Christina Burridge]

We certainly have a couple of fisheries out here who are working on retail traceability schemes to reduce illegal product, and that's particularly true I think with spot prawns and crab. Support for that through some kind of program, as Paul mentioned, would be helpful.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Ms. Strobel, do you have any comments or insight on that as well?

[Sonia Strobel]

I'll echo what Ms. Burridge just said. I think there's a lot of great work being done here, and I think there's an opportunity to support the people who are doing the hard work and really carrying the burden of that work for the industry. To recognize their work and to see government step into that role to support those who are working hard on innovating traceability in the industry would be really appreciated, as it benefits all harvesters and everyone in the industry.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll hand it over to MP Morrissey.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

My question is possibly to Ms. Strobel and Mr. Lansbergen.

I believe, Ms. Strobel, you referenced that the deterrent is basically a slap on the wrist, fines for engaging in misrepresentation of seafood product labelling. In fact, in our first panel, there was a reference to elements of organized crime turning to food supply as a way.... This has come up now in a number of fishery committee meetings.

Could you comment on that? Does government have to take a look at the deterrent side? Are the fines or ramifications strong enough to make it a deterrent to engage in misrepresentation of seafood?

[Sonia Strobel]

I would say from my experience that the deterrents are definitely not strong enough.

I've heard both from folks selling seafood and from conservation and protection officers that the deterrents are not strong enough. I've heard folks from both sides say that.

We've had inspection officers from C and P come to our cold storage to inspect our seafood, who say things like what a relief it is to go through it and see pieces of fish with the skin attached so that it's easy for them to know what it is, and just how difficult it is for C and P officers to determine if what they're looking at is what it says it is on the label. There is a sort of attitude in the industry that the benefits to be had from turning a blind eye to that far outweigh the cost of trying to trace the seafood.

I think it's a very clear opportunity for government to increase enforcement, because when we talk about the cost of seafood, there is a sort of a lie being perpetuated that seafood can be really cheap. It can be really cheap when we exploit people or when we exploit ecosystems. If we were tracing that, then you wouldn't have this disparity on the shelf: “How come this piece of fish is so much cheaper than this one?”

I think the disservice that government does when we don't have strong enforcement really disproportionately affects middle-class jobs, small business and Canadian citizens.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Mr. Lansbergen, do you have a quick comment?

[Paul Lansbergen]

I think that fraud is fraud and we could always spend more money on enforcement. The question is, government has an endless list of things it can spend money on, and it has to figure out where to put those precious dollars and what is the best benefit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Morrissey.

[Christina Burridge]

Could I respond to that very quickly?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, but the time is up. If you have a response to that, please submit it in writing to the committee if you are able to do that. I'm trying to get in the last two questioners.

We'll go to Madame Desbiens now, for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Ms. Burridge, you can go ahead and answer the last question, if you like.

[Christina Burridge]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

I was simply going to add that in the U.S. the fines for fraud of this kind or for harvest violations are very considerable, in the range of $50,000, and that's a deterrent—$500 is not.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Indeed, it's not, especially when it comes to greedy big business.

I'm not sure who should answer my next question, but perhaps Ms. Burridge can.

You said that some companies had already established useful traceability systems. It is definitely worth noting that some work has already been done. Any future working group would probably take that into account and conduct a thorough examination.

Where would you say the biggest problems lie when it comes to traceability and labelling?