Fisheries Committee on May 29th, 2023

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You mentioned that budget 2023 had something helpful in there. Can you expand on that briefly?

[Dr. Peter German]

There were a number of measures in budget 2023 touching upon money laundering, FINTRAC and potential legislation. Again, we haven't seen the impact of that yet, so that remains to be seen.

Money laundering is such a huge issue. It's a case of having enforcement agencies that are resourced and prioritize this type of work. There are many different factors that come into play. There were a number of initiatives in the budget. I also mentioned that there have been a number of initiatives in British Columbia.

At the end of the day, we need the beneficial ownership registry in Canada for both land and corporations. Right now, B.C. is the only one that has a land beneficial ownership registry, and the federal government is talking about and is committed to bringing in a corporate registry. Fisheries, for example, are just one area where it would be really nice to have that beneficial ownership knowledge.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and all the legislation in the world without the resources to enforce it is not very useful.

Ms. Collier, could you confirm for us that, when you and your husband go out to lease quota, you have to pay the asking price at the time you lease it, regardless of the end price you end up getting at the dock? Is that correct?

[Melissa Collier]

It depends on the leasing agreement and the fishery. There are some fisheries where you pay a per-pound lease rate, but in all the licensing agreements that we have had, yes, it's a flat rate that you pay to access that licence, regardless of how much you catch or how much you get for your price in the end.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We get an awful lot of talk that we should move to an owner-operator fleet separation process on the west coast. Is it enough to simply, right now, stop sales to foreign interests or to people who are not boots on the deck? Is that going to be a way to get a just transition done?

[Melissa Collier]

I personally think that you also need fleet separation.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay, that's fair enough.

That's it. I got through my questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am very grateful to all the witnesses for being here. Their presence is always very relevant.

Mr. Bourgault-Faucher, you spoke about the concentration of ownership of fishing licences and quotas, especially in Quebec. What main factors do you think led to such a significant concentration?

[Gabriel Bourgault-Faucher]

Thank you for the question.

There are two main factors, which stem mainly from policies implemented by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. The first is the rationalization plans, most of which were implemented between the late 1990s and the 2010s in various fisheries. This rationalization essentially consisted of buying back existing licences in order to eliminate them. In some cases, this increased the quotas associated with each licence and improved the profitability of fishing enterprises. However, it has also had the undesirable effect of concentrating ownership of fishing licences.

The other factor is the shift in many fisheries from competitive fishing to individual transferable quotas. With those, fishing licences are attached to a set quantity of the resource to be harvested. This has increased the value of licences and led to a buy-back of licences among fishers, contributing to the concentration of licence ownership we see today.

I would like to point out that the rationalization plans and the move to individual transferable quotas are not necessarily inadequate, but they've had undesirable consequences on the concentration of ownership of licences, which in turn leads to problems with wealth redistribution and succession planning.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you. That is very informative.

What really concerns me is the fact that the system creates a kind of vicious circle. It's more profitable for some fishers but, as we know, money is everything. However, the next generation is being sacrificed, as is the communities' access to their fishing potential. Could you tell me what this means in practical terms?

[Gabriel Bourgault-Faucher]

Based on the discussions we had when we went to meet with Gaspé fishers, in particular, consideration must be given to the global economic situation in terms of the concentration of wealth. In fact, in the last 10 years, there has been a very significant increase in the price of major crustaceans on world markets. These include American lobster and snow crab. These are factors associated the global socio-economic conditions that are beyond the control of fishers. As a result, incomes of American lobster and snow crab fishers have increased sharply, even as licence ownership has become more concentrated. Fishers from other fleets haven't been as fortunate in terms of the prices of the species they fish.

It was clear from our discussions that the concentration of wealth is increasingly visible among fishers. This can be seen on the docks, as material disparities between the fishers of the various fleets increase in parallel with the rising ability of some to buy out others. As a result, only the wealthiest fishers are now able to buy licences, which again has the effect of concentrating ownership and accentuating inequalities.

In terms of barriers to establishing the next generation, the main problem is the increase in the value of licences. Again, this is due to rising prices for major crustaceans, licence concentration, rationalization plans and individual transferable quotas. As a result, the next generation has less and less access to these licences, which are currently going to the highest bidder. For the next generation, gaining access to licences and, more generally, acquiring a first fishing enterprise has become almost impossible, unless they come from a fishing family and therefore "inherit" a fishing licence, or are from a wealthy family. This situation also ends up reinforcing inequalities.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

It empties out communities.

Tell me about your solution. I know you talked about community licences, so give me a bit of an explanation about what that might do.

[Gabriel Bourgault-Faucher]

I'd say that there are several possible solutions. I could come back to community licences, of course, but I'd like to point out that the owner-operator and fleet separation regulations play an important role in the Atlantic provinces to preserve the independence of fishers and promote economic benefits in the communities.

On the other hand, based on what I've also heard from others who have appeared before me, it's quite clear that the enforcement of these regulations needs to be strengthened, as it's not working right now. To avoid too much concentration of fishing licences, it would also be appropriate to add certain criteria, such as monitoring transactions more closely and blocking those deemed abusive. There are certainly other regulatory mechanisms being studied to ensure a better distribution of licences and to promote the establishment of the next generation, such as by giving them preferential access to certain licences.

I also think the Department of Fisheries and Oceans should seriously look into the possibility of issuing community fishing licences, not just to indigenous communities, but also to non-indigenous communities. A pilot project could be run in different communities, which could be very interesting. Do we have enough time to talk about those licences?

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

We don't. We'll come back to it, Mr. Bourgault-Faucher.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses, who are here both in person and virtually today.

My first question is for Ms. Collier. It's so nice to see you here. It was nice to meet you at the Fisheries for Communities event a while ago now.

In your opening statement, you mentioned that every year it's getting harder to be a fish harvester, in particular in the last four to five years. You were talking about barriers like you've never seen before. I'm wondering if you could expand a little bit on the particular point that you made around seeing lease prices driven up so high that there is a financial incentive for owners to lease instead of fish.

[Melissa Collier]

I think the B.C. spot prawn fishery is a prime example of that. The leasing prices for that fishery in the last couple of years have been between $40,000 and $60,000 to access that licence. At the same time, in 2022, the overall coastwide fleet catch of spot prawns was in half. For that lease price to stay high, while the catch rate is going down, doesn't make a lot of sense.

At this point in time, instead of going out and fishing myself, taking the risk of fishing and possibly not catching enough prawns, and also taking on all of the financial burden of getting out on the water—my boat, fuel, food with inflation, the cost of everything rising, packaging, paying my crew, etc.—if I could just sit at home, lease that licence and earn that much money, that would be incredible. It's incredibly tempting to owners to access that, especially some of the older folks who are getting on in their careers. Rather than taking that risk, they can sit at home. Having a system that actually incentivizes that doesn't make any sense.

I firmly believe that if fishers were leasing to fishers, the leasing price would be more respective of what they could potentially earn from the fishery.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

My next question goes back to you, Ms. Collier. At the Fisheries for Communities event that we attended, I believe it was you who shared—and please correct me if I'm wrong—a discussion about the impacts, as an example, on Prince Rupert. There was some information shared about the impacts of local fishers and coastal communities being stripped of their livelihoods. In particular, Prince Rupert, which used to be a fishing hub to deliver, resupply and provide the basic amenities, such as showers and laundry, for commercial fishers is now seeing many of those resources dwindling. Was it you who spoke to that? If so, could you expand on that a little bit?

[Melissa Collier]

Yes, it was me who spoke to that. It was a reference to when my husband went up to Prince Rupert. It was in the off-season, in the sense that there wasn't a peak salmon run or anything happening. However, fishers now fish year-round, so he was up there fishing halibut with his cousin. They went in to shore, and they struggled to find basic services. The local plants were shut down for their laundry and bathroom facilities, as well as at the government wharf, due to a variety of reasons listed on their signs, including vandalism, the lack of salmon opportunities, and the cost to run those facilities. Boats like ours, for example, that don't have showers on them.... We're looking for those services. There are fishers talking online about other places within the community where you could try to access those services, but usually they were provided for the fishers at the docks.

It also extends into some of the marine supply stores. The main marine electronics store is no longer there, so they weren't able to get a marine antenna. Even the local fishing gear store had converted most of its stock over to sport fishing gear. There was very limited commercial gear. It just shows you that having the resources of fishers and fishing income go elsewhere is clearly not bringing funds and resources into the community, so much so that the entire community has changed and is no longer supporting fishers in its infrastructure the way it once did.

I have a little bit of context, as well. My husband has fished out of that port for many years, and he knew the names of the owners and could call the phone numbers to get parts waiting for him when he arrived at the dock. That's just not possible. You pretty much have to ship in most of what you need now; you can't get it locally.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Following that question, can you expand a little bit on the impacts that you're seeing—as a local fisher and with your husband being a local fisher, as well—and that you can foresee on local food security?

[Melissa Collier]

Oh, absolutely. I think the pandemic has highlighted how reliant we are on other countries for our food security. Meanwhile, we have some of the best seafood in the country coming out of our own waters. As Ms. Strobel mentioned in a previous session, I believe the numbers are something like 90% being exported while 80% is imported. As for the imported seafood, we don't even really know what it is half the time.

We could just be supporting our own communities and our own food systems. I think it's incredible that we have all of this product coming out of our waters and going elsewhere and we're relying on other countries for food coming in when we could just feed each other, feed our own communities. I think it just parallels a lot what we've seen in the farming industry, as well—supporting our small, local farmers. I think we need to take some more action to support our local food industries, including our fishers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Monsieur Bourgault-Faucher.

Does Quebec have a loan board to help finance fishermen with their investments in the industry?

[Gabriel Bourgault-Faucher]

The Quebec department of agriculture, fisheries and food has a program to help fishers purchase fishing boats. Beyond this provincial program that helps fishers acquire equipment, there isn't really anything else. Given that it's a federal jurisdiction, programs to support fishers come mainly from the Government of Canada.