Fisheries Committee on June 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 74 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022.

Before we proceed, I would like to remind everyone to address all comments through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on Monday, May 1, 2023, the committee is resuming its study of the allocation of resources to the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission.

I would like to welcome our witnesses.

Representing the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Mr. Niall Cronin, executive director, United States transboundary affairs, and Ms. Felicia Minotti, deputy director, United States transboundary affairs.

Thank you for taking the time to appear. You will have up to five minutes to make an opening statement before we go into questions.

When you are ready, please go ahead for five minutes or less.

[Niall Cronin, Executive Director, United States Transboundary Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning. My name is Niall Cronin. Since September 2022, I have been executive director of the U.S. transboundary affairs division at Global Affairs, Canada.

I am joined today by Felicia Minotti, who is deputy director in the same division.

Before continuing, I'd like to start by stating that the territory on which we are gathered is the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

The division where Felicia and I work provides a broad range of analysis and advice to Global Affairs senior officials and ministers, as well as to other federal departments on border, energy, water and environmental issues affecting Canada's bilateral relations with the United States. This includes subjects such as climate change, fossil fuels, water quality and quantity issues, fisheries, as well as Canada's engagement with the International Joint Commission. Our division also provides advocacy support to Canada's diplomatic network in the United States on energy and environmental issues.

Part of our work includes tracking the activities of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission and any issues that might arise. We have regular contacts with the GLFC secretariat, colleagues at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and U.S. counterparts, both directly and through Canada's mission network in the United States.

Felicia Minotti and I discussed current issues with our counterparts at the U.S. Embassy here in Ottawa and at the State Department in Washington. We have offered our management support to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to facilitate communication with the Americans and with the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, as needed.

We understand that on April 25, 2023, the assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer for DFO provided the commission with updated financial information outlining Canada's contribution to GLFC activities, which is consistent with Canada's budget 2022 commitment.

From our perspective, this is very welcome news. Canada takes seriously its obligations to bilateral and multilateral organizations. In addition, we are aware that a number of stakeholders are advocating for a governance change from DFO to Global Affairs. We have assured our U.S. counterparts that regardless of the locus of governance within the Canadian government, Canada takes seriously its obligations under the 1954 Convention on Great Lakes Fisheries. Unless and until there is a decision to move responsibility for the GLC from DFO, we continue to operate under that current construct.

I'd like to point out that departments other than our own lead the government's engagement with bilateral and multilateral organizations. Whichever department is responsible, it consults with the whole of government and speaks on behalf of the Government of Canada when speaking in these forums. This coordination is particularly important when it comes to Canada's relations with the United States.

Canada's relationship with the United States is of primordial importance. As President Biden said in his March 2023 address to Parliament, “No two nations on Earth are bound by such close ties—friendship, family, commerce, and culture.”

The President's in-person visit and the joint statement from the President and Prime Minister confirm that our two nations stand united in this moment, finding solutions side by side.

Bilateral institutions like the GLFC are valuable mechanisms that enable our two countries to find solutions on such important issues.

With that, we'd be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that. You're a little bit under time. That will bode well for the questions part.

I will now go to Mr. Arnold for six minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today on this important issue. I appreciate your opening comments.

I'm going to go back to what we heard last week from officials with the Department of Fisheries, who stated that the issue had been raised to the highest level of government. We can only take that as meaning to the Privy Council Office, cabinet or the PMO. According to him, it's no longer within the Department of Fisheries.

Can you tell us if you're aware of what level it's been taken to at the government level?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, our understanding is that any decisions relating to machinery of government changes rest with the PMO. I think what our colleagues from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans said last week was that analysis has been undertaken across government and that the decision now rests at the centre, which we would call the Privy Council Office or the Prime Minister's Office.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, so it's at the Privy Council Office or the PMO level.

Was your department consulted before it was raised to this highest level?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, as I said in my opening statement, we are in regular touch with officials at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. Yes, we are consulted as the process around this issue winds its way through government.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You've been regularly consulted. Have you been made aware of any issues with changing the machinery of government? Are there any problems that have been pointed out with that?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't say there are problems. I think it's more a question of how these decisions are taken and informed. Like our colleagues at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we've certainly said that we take a very practical approach to the governance of the GLFC. Until and unless there's a decision to change, we're operating under the current construct.

We found that there are a number of models for how Canada manages its relationships with bilateral and multilateral organizations. We do the best with the model that we have.

Thanks.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'm going to be turning the rest of my time over to Mr. Epp.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

The commission contends that the DFO is in a structural conflict of interest position by appointing their commissioners and then being a contracted party of the commission.

Have you seen the Fasken legal opinion that the commission procured and made all of the parties aware of? Can you comment? Do you disagree with the legal opinion expressed?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, we do not agree with the legal opinion that there is a conflict of interest.

I think, as our colleagues from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans stated last week—and I think what we find very encouraging on this file—is that everyone's working in the same direction. Everyone recognizes the importance of the commission. Everyone values the work that they do. Everyone's working to make sure that the work can continue and get back on track.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

As I asked the commission, can you table a legal opinion with the committee for our report that disputes the Fasken commission?

[Niall Cronin]

With respect, I will have to take that back and check to see what can be shared.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thanks.

Are bureaucrats ever correct in superseding provisions of a treaty in international agreements?

[Niall Cronin]

No, I think what bureaucrats are charged with doing is finding effective ways to implement the various provisions in a treaty.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Outside of our Canada-U.S. relationship—and you rightfully pointed out how close that is and how many other kinds of treaties we have—what would be the reaction you would expect from foreign governments if the representatives at the tables were basically cut out by bureaucrats? What would the reaction from other nations be?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, it's difficult for me to answer a hypothetical.

I think what I can say is that Canada certainly takes its treaty obligations seriously. As bureaucrats, we're charged with advising the government and ensuring that the obligations Canada has undertaken are indeed met.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

If that's the case, then why, in your opinion, are the Americans not at the table of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, it's difficult for me to speak on behalf of the American commissioners.

I think the message we've passed to our counterparts here at the U.S. embassy and at the Department of State is, again, that Global Affairs is quite pleased that the funding issues have been sorted. We think we heard that from the chief financial officer last week. I think the message we're sending is that we encourage people to get at the table—

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. I'm sorry to cut you off.

I have one more question. Does the GLFC have the authority under the treaty to contract with another party, other than the DFO, for sea lamprey control?

[Niall Cronin]

I believe it does. Yes, Mr. Chair.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through you, I have a question for Mr. Cronin. Could you expand a bit more to the committee on why you stated that you agreed there is not a conflict of interest with DFO administering the current funding agreement with the Great Lakes Commission?