Fisheries Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

The DFO claimed that the motion, M-91, that was made before the last Parliament in June 2021 is a more complex matter than it likely appears on the surface.

What could be so complicated about shifting fiduciary arrangements? What's so complicated about shifting that from the DFO to Global Affairs?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, I think if that was the Department of Fisheries and Oceans' response, they are probably best to explain the rationale behind it.

What I can say is just to repeat my earlier comments, which echo the comments by Mr. O'Dea before this committee last week. As officials, we are very pragmatic and practical as to where the machinery of government lies on this issue. It's just that the decision is not with any of our departments to take.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

Global Affairs administers funds for various initiatives, like Campobello, the IJC and the International Boundaries Commission.

Does GAC ever arbitrarily withhold funds from these initiatives?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, I could clarify.

The funds for the International Joint Commission and the Roosevelt Campobello International Park are appropriated to Global Affairs Canada and then transferred to the various bodies. We do not hold back monies. Funds for the International Boundary Commission were appropriated to Natural Resources Canada. Natural Resources Canada managed the Treasury Board submission process to secure funds.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

Again, Mr. Cronin, on the same topic, does Global Affairs Canada ever act as the banker, as the provider of services or, for example, as a subcontractor?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, that's a difficult question for me to answer, given the size and scope of the department.

Certainly in the case of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, I can say that DFO speaks for Canada to the commission. The Canadian commissioners are part of the commission and speak, as the commission, back to Canada. The DFO, in its efforts to manage the relationship with the commission, is certainly in touch with Global Affairs Canada—the discussions that Felicia and I mentioned earlier—to make sure that this relationship gets back on track.

What we were certainly encouraged by was the appearance last week and the good faith efforts that are being undertaken by all to make sure that relationship gets back on track.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Initially, it looked like there was a confusion at the DFO.

Were they running a federal program with the sea lamprey initiative or were they acting as a contractor to the Great Lakes Fishery Commission? What's your understanding?

[Niall Cronin]

My understanding is that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans speaks for Canada when engaging with the commission. The DFO also has the responsibility for delivering the sea lamprey control program, which is a key component of the commission's work.

We also heard that the commission has a very important role in research as well. That is something that we certainly support in Global Affairs Canada. We recognize the value of that role.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I'll have to intercept you there because I need some clarity here.

It seems that there's no clarity yet on whether or not they're a contractor, or, in fact, they're running a government program. Processing the funding through the DFO's budget does put them in a bit of a tight spot, because they somehow have to be accountable for that.

Does this money have to go through the DFO, or can it be channelled in another way so that the total sum intended for the fisheries commission gets to it, which then will allocate the amounts necessary to do the sea lamprey program?

[Niall Cronin]

My understanding, Mr. Chair, is that the funding in budget 2022 was allocated through the Treasury Board submission process to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans for five years and ongoing. Under the convention, the commission is to develop its budget, which includes activities for sea lamprey control, and then submit that budget to the contracting parties, Canada and the United States, for approval.

What we've seen from Global Affairs in our experience with other bilateral institutions is that there are a number of discussions that take place throughout that process so that it's very, very clear what the budget requests will be looking for and that the governments will be in a position to approve that request.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That didn't really answer the question, I'm sorry, sir. It's still a mystery here.

Talk about fencing. We understand that the funding for the fisheries commission will be fenced in terms of protecting it from any future austerity programs, or whatever. Is that the mechanism for ensuring that the appropriate amount gets to the commission?

[Niall Cronin]

Certainly, and my understanding from last week's appearance by Department of Fisheries and Oceans officials is that discussions continue with the Great Lakes Fishery Commission's secretariat and that work is continuing on a memorandum of agreement that would lay out the process for how the funding will flow.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for that.

With respect to the conflict of interest allegation here, would it be better if the DFO acted as a nominating body for that seat on the fisheries commission? In other words, there isn't a DFO person sitting on the commission, but they nominate the person to go there. Would that make any difference at all in the issue surrounding conflict of interest?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, again it's difficult for me to speculate. I think what has been helpful with other commissions where government officials have had a seat on the commission or the institution is that it's been very clear that they're there in the interest of the commission and that it's their role, and it's explained to them. However, when they're interacting with governments, it really depends on the context of the conversation.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It would then appear that there is a conflict of interest, because if there's somebody from the DFO sitting on the commission's board, their first responsibility is to the Government of Canada, not to the commission. That would be expected of them.

Finally—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. There are only about four seconds left, so it's hard to get a question out, let alone an answer.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Besides the mandates we've talked about, does Global Affairs Canada entrust the Great Lakes Fishery Commission with any other mandates? In addition to its relationship with the commission, does the department have any other fisheries mandates? I'm trying to be clear.

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, the question was clear. I'm thinking through, given the number of different divisions at Global Affairs, our role on fisheries issues. I could certainly take that back and confer with colleagues on the trade side of the department, who I believe have a role.

I'm trying to think from our team if we have other interactions with bilateral organizations focused on fisheries. It's not done regularly, but we certainly monitor this, again, because of our interest in the general health of the relationship between Canada and the United States, so should issues related to fisheries arise, we would certainly be aware of those and consult with relevant departments to come to a response on behalf of Canada.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If the United States put pressure on Canadian fisheries over the right whale, for example, would you have any power to intervene, any influence?

[Niall Cronin]

In that particular case, I would see a role for Global Affairs.

We have played a role through our diplomatic network in the United States, including the embassy and our consuls general, to make clear to our American counterparts Canada's position on an issue and the reasons behind our position, to help explain to the Americans why we're proceeding in such a course of action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens. You have two seconds, but we'll call that up now.

We'll go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Through you, Mr. Chair, to Mr. Cronin, I'm trying to understand this.

I know you have reiterated today that you can't speculate on things that are not currently in place. However, there's clearly been a push to move the governance structure from that of working through DFO to Global Affairs. Can you clarify if there has been any discussion about what that might look like, about the effectiveness of Global Affairs taking this on and any thoughts or challenges on what that might look like?

[Niall Cronin]

I understand there was some analysis done in 2021 on the implications of a move.

As I said earlier, there are pros and cons. As officials, we work with the structures that are in place. I think there is a good-faith effort under way by officials from DFO and at the Great Lakes Fishery Commission to put the relationship back on track and to codify some of the roles and responsibilities. That's what we're encouraged by at Global Affairs.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

To clarify, through the chair, have you participated in any concrete discussions on what this transition might look like if it were to happen?