Fisheries Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Niall Cronin]

I think what I would say, absolutely, is that the Department of Global Affairs has a role in defending Canadian interests and explaining them to our American colleagues. I think that, if there were specific details, I could certainly take that back and look at what instruments and tools we have at our disposal and, certainly, consult with colleagues at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to find a way forward.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

These people have obviously come forward to Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and a number of approaches have been unsuccessful. When Global Affairs Canada intervenes, it means that it's a bit of a sentinel between the outside and inside of the fishing exercise. Would you like to have more powers to intervene? Would you like to have more powers?

[Niall Cronin]

I think that's something I would have to take back, because it is outside the scope of our division.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Can you do so in writing, after consulting your colleagues?

[Niall Cronin]

I think what would be helpful, Mr. Chair, is to clarify the question, and then I can certainly respond to that in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses here today.

My first question, through you, Chair, is for Mr. Cronin. I wanted to dig a little bit further into the questions around conflict of interest. I'm wondering if you have any written documentation specific to your opinion that there is no conflict of interest.

[Niall Cronin]

As I mentioned before, Mr. Chair, I can take that question back and see what written documentation can be provided to the committee.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Have you, Mr. Cronin, seen the legal opinion that was provided to the Great Lakes Fishery Commission on June 24, 2022?

[Niall Cronin]

Yes, I believe I have a copy.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Further to your comment that you don't agree that there is a conflict of interest, have you seen the specific information in this legal opinion? It states:

...there exists a basic conflict because DFO is a contracted service provider to the Commission. Second, because the Commission's budget ultimately comes out of DFO's...budget, the funding of Commission operations and programs...conflicts with the funding of other DFO operations and programs.

Based on this clear legal opinion that there is a conflict of interest, what is the basis of your statement that there is not a conflict of interest?

[Niall Cronin]

I think, Mr. Chair, I would go back to the comments provided by our colleagues at Fisheries and Oceans to the committee last week that, because our interests are aligned in delivery of the fishery commission's mandate, there is no conflict.

I do understand that there are differences of opinion. The opinion provided by our lawyers is different, and that's why I committed to going back to the department to see what could be shared in writing with this committee.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Through the chairman, Mr. Cronin, to clarify this, then you are in disagreement with the legal opinion provided to us in testimony by the Great Lakes Fishery Commission.

[Niall Cronin]

That's correct, Mr. Chair.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Okay, thank you.

My next question is about your comments, Mr. Cronin, on how funding issues have been sorted. Mr. Baker was here at a previous meeting, and the following are just a little glimmer of some of the information he spoke to. He clearly articulated in his opening statement that in November 2022, “not only had Parliament's 2022 funding not been provided, but the full Canadian appropriation for 2023 was not available either, some eight months following Parliament's commitment to fully fund the commission. Worse, DFO then communicated its intent to withhold from Parliament's allocation”. It goes on from there.

Would you say, Mr. Cronin, through the chair, that this would be an example of the funding being sorted?

[Niall Cronin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

No. I would go back to my opening statement and the reference to the letter from the chief financial officer at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, which was sent in April. I think it went some way to resolving the issue of funding and making it clear that funds would be transferred and that there's a stable path forward for the future based on budget 2022 commitments.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

Through you as well, Mr. Chair, Mr. Cronin, can you clarify what you meant when you said, “do the best with the model that we have.” What does that look like, doing “the best with the model that we have”? What do you see as the challenges with the model that's currently in place?

[Niall Cronin]

I think, Mr. Chair, I would go back to the point that machinery of government decisions are made outside any one department. In the decision, the current construct is that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans is responsible for the GLFC, and so Global Affairs is working with that model.

What that means is that we're in communications with Department of Fisheries and Oceans officials as well as with the Great Lakes—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Cronin. I'm sorry to cut you off. I appreciate it. I just want to get to the crux of my question.

I understand that the decision-making capacity is not yours to make. However, you do have experience within. Could you please speak to the challenges that you see within the existing systems?

[Niall Cronin]

I think what I would say, Mr. Chair, to that question is that there are a number of different models. Not all of the relationships with international organizations or bilateral institutions are managed by Global Affairs. What we've seen in some of the regional fishery organizations and some of the bilateral fishery commissions we have with the United States is that those relationships are managed quite successfully by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

Really, I think what would be of value is that the committee's findings will help us understand more, what's at the heart of this issue.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Cronin.

When Mr. Baker was here—I believe it was Mr. Baker—he said there was discussion about the commission's portfolio management duties being moved from DFO to Global Affairs, and that it should “mirror the successful and proven U.S. structure” currently in place. What are your thoughts on that?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, as I understand it, in the United States the Department of State is responsible for the U.S. relationship with the Great Lakes Fishery Commission. I don't have a comment on the U.S. system; it is very much their business to decide how things are run.

I would note, in the same way, that not all international organizations or bilateral institutions are managed by Global Affairs in Canada, and not all of them are managed by the Department of State. For example, in Canada, Global Affairs is responsible for the relationship with the Roosevelt Campobello park, but my understanding is that on the United States' side, the responsibility for that relationship is managed by the Department of the Interior and the National Park Service.

Really, there are a number of different models. There are a number of different ways to manage a successful relationship with a bilateral institution.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming out today. I'm looking forward to working with you folks in Global Affairs in the next few years as we break down some trade barriers for our pinniped products. I'm expecting great support from your department.

My question is for Ms. Minotti, since we haven't heard from you today, and I'm sure you have some valuable input.

In April 2021, a letter was signed by 18 MPs and sent to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, requesting a change in Canadian leadership from DFO to GAC. In May of that year various stakeholders made the exact same request.

What discussions took place between DFO and GAC as a result of those requests for a change in leadership?

[Felicia Minotti]

Thank you.

That was in April and May 2021. I'm just recalling the dates. To be honest, it was some time ago.

Mr. Chair, normally our approach would be to look at the letter, talk about the content of the letter and respond to the letter, if it just came to our minister, or.... Sometimes letters have been received by both ministers, but quite often we would just discuss the content of the letter and the request or comments being made in the letter to our ministers.

Thank you.