Fisheries Committee on June 12th, 2023

[Niall Cronin]

I have not, Mr. Chair.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

To clarify this further, Mr. Cronin, are you aware of any other parties having these discussions?

[Niall Cronin]

Yes. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Absolutely, the discussions continue across departments. Again, as colleagues from the Department of Fishers and Oceans said at their last appearance, those decisions rest outside of an individual department. That's why it's difficult for me to comment on the nature of them or who's involved and things like that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I have a final question I'd like to ask Mr. Cronin, through the chair.

You had started listing off various models that you've seen used. What would you recommend as a model in these circumstances?

[Niall Cronin]

I appreciate the question, Mr. Chair, but it's really not for me to make recommendations to the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We will now go to Mr. Epp for five minutes or less, please.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Mr. Perkins will start.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll just start, and then I'll pass it to Mr. Epp.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay, I thought you wanted me to erase your name from the sheet.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I know how much you would enjoy it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're up. Your five minutes are ticking.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I'll hand it over to Mr. Epp. I just have one question, and we don't often get a Global Affairs official before this committee.

Recently Global Affairs and DFO shut down Bait Masters' use of seal products as alternative lobster bait, while the U.S. is culling 9,000 sea lions in the Columbia River.

I just want to know why we would cave so quickly when the U.S. is actually more aggressive in dealing with their issues around seals and pinnipeds than we are.

[Niall Cronin]

I appreciate the question, Mr. Chair.

I will have to take that back, as it is a subject that the division doesn't deal with. I think what is always helpful when it comes to dealing with our American counterparts is being very clear with them about the reasons we are taking the decisions that we are, and the benefits of that decision, not just on the Canadian side but also on the American side. That helps us make the case.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I appreciate that.

If they could provide that in writing, it would be great.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you.

You stated that you engaged with Privy Council or PMO in 2021 on this whole issue.

Were representatives physically in attendance at those meetings, and what form of a submission was that? Was that in the form of an analysis or a national proposal for the transition of the machinery of government?

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, I could correct what I said earlier.

We had engaged in some internal conversations and analysis within Global Affairs on what a change could look like. The present state of conversation is now at the centre.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

My understanding is that it's been at the centre for nine months or so. Would that be accurate?

[Niall Cronin]

I would have to check our records; I'm honestly not sure.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

If you could supply that to the committee, it would be appreciated.

No one around this table is questioning DFO's delivery of the sea lamprey program. In fact, I've heard only positive things. However, there are two separate issues here before us on governance side.

You mentioned earlier that you were encouraged by the fact that the funding issues were sorted out for two years, yet the 2022 budget was explicit on its being five years. Why do you think there's a discrepancy? Why is the DFO not committing to five years of the transparent transference of the intended budget funds?

[Niall Cronin]

My understanding, Mr. Chair, is that those discussions are ongoing between DFO and the commission. There's certainly a clear commitment from DFO as well as from the commission to make sure that things get back on track, that things are clear and that we have the assured funding. We can assure our American friends that Canada continues to live up to its commitments under the 1954 convention.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you. That's exactly where I wanted to go next.

There are discussions around a memorandum of understanding on how we should operate.

Global Affairs manages the Campobello Park with the IJC. Do you need a memorandum in that relationship?

[Niall Cronin]

We do not have a memorandum of agreement between GAC and those organizations. I do understand that other departments have those with the IJC. I believe Environment and Climate Change Canada has an MOU with the IJC. I think what we do have with those organizations is an understanding of the process based on the conventions that govern these organizations.

I think what I certainly heard from colleagues at DFO is, yes, there are some issues that need to be addressed. No one's disputing that, but there are efforts under way to address those. It sounds like a memorandum of agreement is one way to get there.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

I understand, if you have other relationships, other than the machinery of government transferring funds from the treasury to the operations of a binational or multinational commission for anything, that you might need a memorandum of understanding or a contract. It's a contractual relationship to deliver sea lamprey control, science or other things.

The argument is specifically around the machinery-of-government function. I know of no other situation where the authority rests with a certain department and an MOA is needed to codify the relationship. I've seen the main estimates of the IJC. They're very transparent. There's one line where the funds are transferred. Why that is not the case for the DFO is what I think I and we all fail to understand.

[Niall Cronin]

Mr. Chair, we were very encouraged to hear from the CFO the other week that efforts are under way to make sure that there could be a reporting in the public accounts. Global Affairs would very much support that. It's helpful in our conversations with our American colleagues to demonstrate that Canada's meeting its obligations under the 1954 convention.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Epp.

We'll now go to Mr. Hanley for five minutes or less, please.