Fisheries Committee on Nov. 21st, 2023

[Adam Burns]

Mr. Chair, it is true that generally when we speak of IUU we're speaking of those activities occurring on the high seas. Certainly, as my colleagues have pointed out through their various responses today, the department's C and P program is actively involved in ensuring compliance with our domestic fishery rules, regulations and laws as well. There's ongoing, active enforcement every day by C and P officers across the country.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Slaney, could you provide the committee with a written response on how many dollars and personnel hours are dedicated, on an annual basis, to fighting IUU domestically in Canadian waters and internationally outside Canadian waters?

Could you just give a yes or no if you could provide that in writing?

[Lloyd Slaney, Acting Director General, Conservation and Protection, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Yes, sir, I can do that.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

From the outset of this study, I think it's important that this committee hear why DFO needs to enforce the laws and regulations and to counter IUU.

Mr. Burns, briefly, why is it essential for DFO and other agencies to do that?

[Adam Burns]

In terms of countering IUU on the high seas, there are important conservation implications related to illegal fishing. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, it's related to four examples—not only salmon and tuna, but also the implications for the broader ocean ecosystem, and the impacts that some of the illegal and unreported fishing can have on the ecosystem itself.

Those have direct links to impacts to Canadians and to important fish stocks for Canadians as well.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So there would be significant impacts if the IUU were not addressed by DFO and enforcement personnel

[Adam Burns]

Yes, we believe so, and that is why the government has made the investments that it has recently.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Mr. Burns, when DFO is calculating the total allowable catch, or TAC, of a particular fishery, does DFO factor in an estimate of how much is removed from that fishery resource by IUU activity before calculating TAC?

[Adam Burns]

Chair, I'll interpret that question as referring to both high seas IUU and also to what we would refer to as unauthorized fishing domestically. Varying definitions use different terms for that.

The answer to that would be largely yes. Our science advice takes into account as much information as it can, and often does include estimates of unreported catch as well in the advice we're provided.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Could you provide us in writing how those calculations are made specific to fish stocks, especially Pacific coast salmon stocks, and how those calculations go into calculating legal allowable harvests?

[Adam Burns]

I can't speak for my colleagues in science. My understanding of the process they use is that that estimation is different from fishery to fishery based on the available information. We can provide some examples, if not a more general answer.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

In recent years there have been several fisheries-themed agreements that the federal government has finalized with indigenous-governing bodies, which have given those bodies authorities to manage and regulate their own fisheries.

Mr. Burns, are all harvests managed and regulated by indigenous-governing bodies reported by those bodies, and reported to DFO?

[Adam Burns]

There are a variety of shared decision-making processes that have been established in the pursuit of advancing reconciliation, but generally, in virtually every instance, the minister's decision-making remains intact in making those final decisions based on that collaborative work with the particular nation or indigenous group.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

In those RRAs, rights and reconciliation agreements, do the requirements include that all harvest and fish management regulated by the authority be recorded and reported to DFO?

[Adam Burns]

The recording and monitoring of removals varies from fishery to fishery, so I'd want to be careful in how I answer that question, Mr. Chair, in the sense that there absolutely is variability within the reporting requirements in both commercial and rights-based fishing activities. The department works on a fishery-by-fishery basis to ensure an appropriate level of monitoring to inform the variety of activities we're responsible for in fisheries management, in scientific activities and otherwise, including working with implicated harvesters in a particular fishery to meet their international market access requirements as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold.

We'll go to Mr. Hardie for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to you all for being here.

My focus throughout these hearings will be on unregulated fishing in the Fraser, Thompson, Skeena, Nass and maybe even the Columbia river systems. I have lived experience in a lot of these areas, and I have to tell you that there's a long-standing perception, which I hope to pop—if it can be done—that our indigenous groups are over-involved in illegal and unregulated fishing.

Mr. Davis, is there a lack of clarity around indigenous fishing rights for enforcement officers?

[Neil Davis]

If you mean whether enforcement officers themselves have a misunderstanding of fishing rights, I don't think so. We have training programs that attempt to keep our fishery officers up to date. It is also a topic that is evolving. Rights can be defined through court cases that are in turn interpreted and implemented either through agreements we may make or through collaborative work with the nations themselves.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That would indicate that there indeed is a degree of lack of clarity.

Mr. Burns, in your position, you'd be able to speak to the issue of indigenous protocols that are brought in when enforcement actions involve a first nations or indigenous group. What are indigenous protocols? What do they look like?

[Adam Burns]

Mr. Chair, I'm not quite sure specifically what the member is asking, but I can speak to the fact that, when our conservation and protection officers seek to enforce various rules, whether they be licence conditions or otherwise, in the context of a rights-based or a fishing activity that is being undertaken on the basis of rights, it's important for the government to understand the nature of those rights and the asserted rights in that context.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Sir, you're kind of guessing, and if nobody here has a firm grasp of what this protocol looks like, I would appreciate somebody getting back to us with those details. I think they'll be quite important as we try to put into context and perhaps deal with some perceptions out there that are grossly incorrect, because there are community and social issues involved that, unless we're sensitive to them and know the realities of them, we're likely to come up with recommendations that won't work very well.

In the investigation of illegal fishing, has there been any reporting done on the impact of that fishing on stocks or on habitat? To what degree are they considered to be destructive or damaging to stocks or habitat? Does anybody have any background on that?

[Adam Burns]

That would be an appropriate question for DFO science. As I've mentioned before, they certainly do, in their scientific advice, take into account unreported catches, so any impact related to that would at least be considered in the scientific assessment of the stocks.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Again, some background on that would be useful.

Can we talk about first nations guardians, because we've quite often heard that setting up first nations to actually monitor.... I don't know if enforcing is really part of the mandate. What role do you see the guardians playing now versus, potentially, what they could do to address the situation?

[Adam Burns]

Aboriginal fisheries guardians are an important part of reconciliation, and, certainly, we have some really good examples where that system is working well. It is an area that the department is seeking to expand.

There are a variety of roles that aboriginal fisheries guardians can play in a full spectrum, from, as you noted, enforcement type activities, but we also have other arrangements wherein it's more of a co-management type of approach. There are various activities related to the monitoring of the harvest to inform science activities, and other management activities are also undertaken.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Right. I appreciate that.

Again, back to Mr. Davis, B.C. is a big province with lots of very important river systems. Are there enough resources between the province and the federal government to adequately enforce?