Fisheries Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

Mr. Chair, if I am able to do so, I will most certainly take a moment to acknowledge that we have some others here. I would acknowledge that we have with us Chief Murphy Abraham from the Lake Babine First Nation, as well as Dominique Nouvet, legal counsel. Also, from the Kitselas First Nation, we have Chief Councillor Glenn Bennett and Dr. David Try. That's just to mention that if I were able to acknowledge their presence, I would most certainly do so.

With that, I have some questions today, Deputy Minister Gibbons. As you know, Ms. Gibbons, first nations in northwest B.C. are stewards of the land and water, and have been for millennia. They are experts on sockeye salmon migration in the waters. They know the importance of ensuring that the keystone species is protected for future generations.

Today I wanted to ask some questions about where we currently are with treaty negotiations, with working alongside first nations on this necessary work to protect sockeye salmon. I understand that first nations in northwest B.C. are nearing the completion of treaties with British Columbia and Canada, including chapters related to fisheries.

I'm wondering, Ms. Gibbons, if you could provide the committee with an update on how the fisheries-related provisions in those treaties are progressing.

[Annette Gibbons]

Thank you very much.

As you know, these are very long negotiation processes. We want to make sure that we take the time to really understand what the communities want. Of course, in fisheries, in most cases stocks are not in increasing abundance, right? There are some, but in general we have declines in many of the stocks on the coast, so it's very challenging to be able to meet all the requests and requirements of communities.

There's a requirement for money to offset the cost of acquiring allocations to meet obligations and quotas. There is a huge financial component to what we do, and we're taking the time to identify what all those amounts are and go through our approval process—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Yes. Thank you, Ms. Gibbons. Just because I have such limited time, I want to make sure I get to more specifics.

What is the status of the treaty specific to the Kitselas First Nation around fisheries-related work that's required to happen?

[Annette Gibbons]

I think that we are largely there. I think there is just a little bit of final work to do on our part.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Ms. Gibbons, last year you met with those from the Lake Babine Nation around the term sheet, which was prepared jointly and co-operatively by the nation and DFO. They were told that it would be going to cabinet in the spring of 2023 for approval, so that they can partner with the federal government to do the vital work to protect species in the fisheries. What happened between the time when you sat and had that discussion and made those commitments and now, and where are we currently?

[Annette Gibbons]

As I explained to the chief yesterday, we are working through our approval processes still, unfortunately. These things do take time.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Gibbons.

We're seeing a lot of movement, and what I'm hearing from many first nations is that we are seeing a lot of movement happening by the British Columbia government to work alongside first nations, to see positive movement through reconciliation in working with first nations on this important work, but we're seeing what I'm hearing described as “stalling”, as “hitting a wall”, on the federal end. Can you explain why we're seeing such deferred action? Why are we not seeing the action that's necessary?

I understand that it takes time, but it's getting to a point where there are some serious concerns. We know, to the point that you made at the beginning, that the stocks are dwindling. Now more than ever, we need to see the federal government working alongside first nations, who understand these stocks better than those who are here in Ottawa. Why the delay, and what can be done today? What commitment can be done, starting today, to assure first nations that this work is going to happen moving forward?

[Annette Gibbons]

We've been at the tables with these communities for years. We are reaching a stage now of conclusion on many of them. There are little pieces that we need to tie up on our end. As I said, it is unfortunate. I appreciate that communities want to reach the final stages here, but we still have a little bit of work to do at the federal level to get everything right and to do this with all of the authorities that we need. That's where we are.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We will now go to Mr. Arnold, for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all four of you from the department for being here today.

I'll start with Ms. Gibbons.

Ms. Gibbons, in 2022-23, DFO started receiving $92 million, spread over six years, for implementation of the Impact Assessment Act, which the Supreme Court has now deemed to be largely unconstitutional. How has the Supreme Court assessment of the Impact Assessment Act affected DFO's implementation of the act?

[Annette Gibbons]

We continue to work on the cases that we're working on. As the government has announced, there is work under way to figure out the way forward, given the reference case on the act.

At the end of the day, I think DFO's work on assessing impacts to projects that come through will continue. There will be adjustments, of course, depending on the changes to the Impact Assessment Act, but we will still have a role to play in assessments of impacts on fish and fish habitat.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Do you know what that role will be, in light of the court's decision and until the new revisions to the act come out, or are you just waiting to see?

[Annette Gibbons]

We're working through that with our colleagues in other departments.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Henderson, has the Coast Guard signed off on the final design of the Arctic and offshore patrol ships to be built by Irving shipyards?

[Chris Henderson]

Steel was cut for the seventh of the AOPS in August, and so construction of the ship is well under way. There remained a small number—like one or two—of design changes that still needed to be worked out.

I'll give you an example of one of them, just to paint the picture: Davits, for the launching and recovery of the boats, were still being worked through. However, they weren't affecting the overall construction design, and the resolution of them wasn't going to change the final configuration.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

They've finally started construction, then. Thank you.

Has the Coast Guard signed off on the final design of the two polar icebreakers being built by Seaspan and Davie?

[Chris Henderson]

The final designs are not under way. The design work isn't finished, no.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Is there any idea when that design work might be finished?

[Chris Henderson]

I'm sorry, but I don't have the specific information. We can get that for you.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

If you could provide that to the committee in writing, that would be great.

[Annette Gibbons]

We are working on the first one, at the Vancouver shipyards. We are in the middle of that. With the one that will be built at Davie, it's not yet under way.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

You're not even working on the design phase yet.

[Annette Gibbons]

We're still working through.... We just signed what we call our umbrella agreement with Davie shipyards, and we're now in the process of working on more detailed contracts.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Could you provide a timeline to the committee on the completion of these design phases?

[Annette Gibbons]

Yes, Mr. Chair.