Fisheries Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[Ghislain Collin]

That's exactly right. We need data and fishers on the water. How can the department prepare a recovery plan without data?

Echo sounding has its limits when it comes to assessing stocks. You need fishers. That's true across Canada, not just in Carleton-sur-Mer, on Chaleur Bay.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now move to Ms. Barron for six minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Collin, how can indigenous and non-indigenous fishers and communities co‑operate and work with Fisheries and Oceans Canada to combat unreported and unregulated illegal fishing?

[Ghislain Collin]

First of all, everyone has to abide by the same rules regarding hail-ins, logbooks and dockside weighing, for example. The same rules must apply to everyone, not just to Quebec commercial pelagic fishers. That way, we can collect reliable data, and the scientists won't be deprived of that invaluable information.

We could work in collaboration with the indigenous communities by following the same rules and providing data to the scientists. We can really help by providing that data.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. King.

Mr. King, you were giving us some pretty specific numbers around the illegal eel fishery in Nova Scotia. I'm wondering if you have a breakdown. I know that you were talking about the number of eels leaving the country. Do you have the information around how that looks as far as the amount of illegal fishing that's happening locally is concerned, as well as by those who are coming in from outside the local community? You talked about people coming in from Maine. I'm trying to understand how that breaks down—how much is being done locally, by local people, and how much is being done by those who are coming in specifically to participate in illegal fisheries.

[Stanley King]

Unfortunately, there's no good answer for that, because we don't know the breakdown of local, non-local, indigenous or non-indigenous poachers or illegal fishers. That's because we see no enforcement. Nobody's going around checking for licences. Nobody's asking for identification. If DFO enforcement were doing their job on the riverbanks at night, we might have a bit more insight into that question.

What I can tell you is that no matter where they're from, they sell their fish locally, so there's a local buyer. They just leave the province with cash. That local buyer sells to a Chinese buyer. Then they ship it by air. Sometimes, to evade DFO—although I don't think they're really looking—they'll truck the fish out of the Maritimes to an airport in Toronto or Montreal and fly it straight to China that way.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

It's clear that if there's nobody following up on the reports that are being made, it's hard to really differentiate the information on what's happening.

You made a statement at the beginning, though, that I'm trying to understand—and correct me if I'm wrong—around indigenous people playing a big part in this. Without this information, I'm wondering if you can explain a little more the basis of that comment.

[Stanley King]

Sure. For a long time, indigenous communities in the Maritimes have wanted greater access to the fishery, and our organization has always been a strong proponent of that. We think there's room in the fishery for greater indigenous access, and that should be one of DFO's prime objectives. However, we need to do it through a licensed setting, because we have a set TAC. This is a species that traditionally has had some problems but is doing quite well now, but we still have to keep an eye on it. Therefore, all harvesting has to come under a DFO umbrella so that we know exactly what's coming out of the fishery from a conservation standpoint.

I don't want to paint all first nations with the same brush about doing unlicensed fishing, because they're not all doing it. There are opportunists. Other non-first nation fishers have capitalized on this, because they've seen that there's no enforcement and that nobody's minding the shop. They're capitalists. They just come in, and they are fishing and trying to make as much money as they can as well.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you for the clarification.

Just to clarify, based on the information we have, there is no actual evidence that indigenous people are leading these illegal fisheries or are predominantly seen participating in these illegal fisheries. There is no information to support that specific comment that was made, just to clarify.

[Stanley King]

No, there is specific information. A lot of the first nation bands that are not working with DFO have come up with their own conservation plan—fishing plan—and have implemented it without DFO's permission. They will readily tell you that it's actually the majority of first nation bands. Therefore, when you're on the—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

I'm sorry. I interrupt only because I have only 45 seconds left, and I want to make sure. I really do feel that the onus of responsibility here should be on DFO to ensure that we have the appropriate information being collected, that we have accountability being put into place and that we're bringing indigenous and non-indigenous community members together to talk about what's happening. I would be willing to bet that we would have more common concerns among all those involved than not.

Have there been any opportunities or any discussion? Has DFO been in touch at all to discuss this complex issue and to bring non-indigenous and indigenous people together to talk about a path forward?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Please be very quick, if you can.

[Stanley King]

I'll just comment that the first nation bands that are licensed participants are very upset with DFO, as are the non-first nations fishers. We're all upset with DFO for mismanaging this fishery.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

Before we go on to the second round, I've had requests from two members to bring motions forward later in this meeting. If everyone is in agreement, we can carve out 15 minutes at 12:45 to deal with these motions. I see no objections, so our rounds of questioning witnesses will wrap up, and we'll take a short suspension at 12:45. Thank you.

The next round goes to Mr. Perkins for five minutes.

Go ahead, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You're doing a wonderful job, by the way.

I'm sure this will surprise people: My questions will all go to Mr. King.

I'm following up on MP Barron's questions. As you know, every night I was home during the legal elver fishing season. I was going out every Friday and Saturday night at midnight, looking at the rivers to see what was going on. Every river I went to—many of which are not even licensed elver rivers, not designated by DFO—had poachers on it. I had many constituents whose properties were being defiled and destroyed as poachers parked and utilized their.... I had single mothers threatened by people.

I understand it's a sensitive topic. I had death threats during this time, as did my wife. There was a lot of criminal activity, from the U.S., Quebec and all over, but there was also a lot of indigenous illegal fishing. I talked to them and saw them first-hand.

How long has this been going on?

[Stanley King]

This really started in 2020. We'd see dribs and drabs before that, but in 2020 there was a concerted effort to access the fishery unlicensed. If I may, a typical fishing night for us is two people per river, one on each side. We will have a dip net. In 2020, maybe 10 people showed up, five of them on each side. Then, it slowly grew over 2021, because there was no enforcement. In 2022, it grew more. In 2023, it exploded, so that there would be 50 people, unlicensed, on each side of the river, with one licensed fisher on each side of the river. You can see the logistics are just unbelievable.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

My office called the RCMP detachments on the south shore of Nova Scotia almost every day, asking if DFO had been contacting them for assistance, and every day they said no. I had the RCMP threatening to arrest my constituents who were complaining about the trespassing on their land, and refusing to actually come and enforce even their responsibilities.

Did you see any DFO C and P enforcement officers on the rivers at all, either during the month before the legal season, when the poaching started, or even in the months after, into the summer, when the illegal poaching continued into the summer?

[Stanley King]

As for prior to the season and the whole duration of the season, for the six rivers that we monitor 24 hours a day, we saw zero DFO C and P enforcement, none. After it was closed, they used that as a lever to be able to enforce a bit more. That's what they told us. They used that. We did see them, but normally in the day.

This is a fishery that happens at night, so we have pictures of them coming out in the day to check the river. It's completely useless. They told us prior to the season—we have an annual meeting with our DFO supervisor—to temper our expectations for enforcement. They said that to us before the season.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Publicly, they said before the season started that they had enough resources to enforce the law, but then they shut it down, because it was too dangerous and they didn't have enough resources.

The inconsistency is huge. The violence is terrible. It's only going to get worse. DFO may use the lack of science now on the river as an excuse to shut down the legal fishery. Have they contacted you at all about their plans, three months from now, for how they're going to enforce the law and prevent this from happening again?

[Stanley King]

There has been virtually no transparency on DFO's part on what the next season will look like. We have had workshops, because they're working on a fisheries review, but we are not hopeful that this will make one iota of difference, because the criminals and illegal harvesters don't care what the rules and regulations are. If you don't go down with boots on the ground, with C and P Fisheries officers, and put these people in check, the same thing is going to happen in 2024 as happened in 2023. I can guarantee it.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

There's probably going to be exponentially more, because when it's $5,000 a kilogram, it just brings in more criminal activity.

To be clear, people don't eat elvers. They are shipped to be grown into full eels. The elver fishery, I believe, has only existed for 30 years. Is that correct?

[Stanley King]

That's correct.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Any claim to a right to a fishery that didn't exist before 30 years ago, I personally believe does not exist.

[Stanley King]

Yes. You're absolutely right. All the fish are exported live to grow out in aquaculture facilities. The fishery is quite young, approximately 30 years. For 20 or 25 of those years, we had a very modest living. We just scraped by. We didn't have a market. We had to travel the world to try to get people to buy our fish. We travelled many trips to Asia. The state of the fishery today is a direct result of our hard work, and grinding it out for 20 or 25 years, making next to nothing. Global markets have shifted. Global markets may shift back, but right now, yes, the price has increased.