Fisheries Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[Carl Allen, Vice-President, New Brunswick, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

I had hoped to travel to Ottawa in person, but due to a family emergency I was unable to. I have come to know many of the members of the committee over the last few years. I always appreciate the opportunity to have a chat on the sidelines before and after the committee meeting, but at least this format offers me the opportunity to testify.

The Maritime Fishermen's Union is an organization that represents approximately 1,300 inshore fish harvesters in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia. Since its inception in the 1970s, the MFU's mission has been to represent, promote and defend the interests of inshore fish harvesters and their communities.

The issue of illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing is a very important one for our members. One of the first major problems that the Maritime Fishermen's Union tackled head-on, as far back as the 1970s, was resource sustainability. I'll use the lobster fishery as an example. At the inception of our organization in the 1970s, poaching and non-compliance with conservation measures by our own members was a serious obstacle to the path of sustainability. It is only with consistent and effective enforcement efforts, as well as education through collaborative science and awareness projects, that today our fishermen have become some of the greatest stewards of the resource. However, challenges remain.

The following are some areas of concern and some recommendations for the committee from our organization.

Consistent and effective enforcement has been one of the cornerstones of the establishment of a sustainable lobster fishery in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, as mentioned above. During this period, commercial indigenous lobster fisheries have also successfully integrated into the traditional commercial fishery after the Marshall resource-access transfers and capacity-building initiatives in the late 1990s and 2000s. This access was transferred to indigenous groups after a voluntary licence relinquishment, or VLR, program was put in place with the objective of not increasing overall effort on the lobster fishery.

However, the same cannot be said for the food, social and ceremonial fishery's access, where, in some areas, effort has been increased outside the VLR process. This fishery is intended to be for small-scale food production for indigenous communities. However, in some cases it is used for commercial purposes outside the conservation rules.

A more stringent, standardized and overarching DFO oversight of all FSC fisheries is needed in order to maintain healthy fish stocks for everyone moving forward. If more commercial access is needed by some indigenous groups, the VLR process has to be used. Furthermore, fish buyers that are procuring illegally accessed resources need to be held accountable and suffer significant consequences for their actions. The provinces, which are responsible for the fish buyers' licences, need to significantly step up fines and licence suspensions for companies or individuals who are found guilty under the Fisheries Act. If not controlled properly—if there's no enforcement—even some non-indigenous people get in on the indigenous FSC fisheries and just hide in the mix.

Moving forward, efficient and effective catch reporting is needed in order to meet growing international food traceability standards, but also in order to access the timely fisheries data that is necessary to better inform fisheries management. The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has been in talks with fishing organizations and app developers for over 10 years with the objective of developing fishermen e-logs that would replace the inefficient paper logbooks. However, fishermen integration will prove difficult if the app experience is too complicated. Since 2022, some trials have been undertaken with approximately 5% of our membership, with mixed results. A more effective system to integrate the e-log system with buyers at the wharf weighing stations would be a good step forward. Even as it stands in my fishery now, if I had to e-log tomorrow, it does not solve the data lag, in that the real data comes from buying slips, so an e-buying slip may be something to look at as well.

Lastly, a multilateral collaboration process between the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, provinces and stakeholders' rights groups, including buyers and processors, is necessary in order to establish effective IUU fishing controls moving forward.

I thank you for the opportunity today, and I look forward to the questions that you have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Allen.

We'll move right into the question round.

We'll go to Mr. Perkins for six minutes or less.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll split my time with Mr. Arnold.

Two years ago, in lobster fishing areas 33 and 34, the DFO reported that catches were down 50%. Preliminary reports are that they're down another 50% to 75%. We're talking about, in the space of two years, a drop of perhaps as much as 75% in the most important fishery in Nova Scotia.

There has been poaching going on out of season in the nurseries for at least five years.

I'd like to start with Ms. Sonnenberg.

Is there any other explanation as to why these stocks are declining so rapidly?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

Mr. Perkins, if I had the answer to that question, I probably wouldn't be here today; I'd have a different job.

I do agree that it's most concerning in terms of what's happening in the Bay of Fundy and around into area 33. We see the stocks go down. We know that there are a multitude of things going on that are, I would say, not very well addressed in terms of recognizing some of the poaching and illegal fishing that's happening, as well as other environmental issues that are happening that could possibly be contributing to this. Now we are in a DEFCON-1 situation, and the work that's been done in the lead-up to this seems a bit lacking. I'm not in a position to talk about areas 33 and 34 too intimately, but I certainly recognize, being a neighbour to them, that we have serious issues.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

During the study by this committee of the lobster crisis in 2020, we heard testimony from Dr. Dadswell, who is the DFO scientist who put in place all of the LFAs and all of the science for it and then went on to Acadia University. He testified that if you wipe out the breeding stock in the summer in St. Marys Bay and Browns Bank, you're going to wipe out all lobster in southwest Nova Scotia and New England, yet DFO has just given another 7,200 tonnes with no science to Clearwater to fish, and they fish right at the corner of 34; they don't fish that whole area. Could it be that six years, coincidentally, is the time it takes for lobster to grow to the size to be caught, and that is why this is having an impact now?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

I would venture to say yes, it's definitely having an impact. I would go back to my comments in my presentation that we need robust enforcement and a recognition of the rules.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

We don't have enough resources for that, obviously.

Mr. Allen, do you have any comments on this?

[Carl Allen]

As a matter of fact, at the Maritime Fishermen's Union, we do have a local down in what's called the Acadian shore, Meteghan, in that area of St. Marys Bay. I will tell you that the membership that we have from that area have been bringing this issue to our biannual board meetings for a number of years. Going back probably further than that, six or seven years, this issue has been continuing to build.

Is it the only factor? Maybe yes; maybe no, but I think that part of the problem is that because there is no real data on the amount of lobster that may be coming out of the water, it's hard to know what that effect may or may not be. Even if I was a first nations member who was practising my food fishery in a responsible manner, I would also want that information to prove that I'm not the culprit.

There's a good case to be made that it should be a heavily monitored thing to make sure what the effect is. We can all speculate whether it is the only effect or whether it's one out of 100, but without proper monitoring, no one really knows. For me, that's the fact. We face the same issue with the two FSC fisheries in eastern New Brunswick as well.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Arnold, you have the floor.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

For Ms. Sonnenberg and Mr. MacPherson, Mr. Knight appeared in the previous hour, and I didn't get his exact words, but basically I think he said that illegal fishing is driven by money. Do you feel that it is legal or illegal money that is driving IUU fisheries more than anything else?

[Melanie Sonnenberg]

Illegal fishing is always driven by money, in my opinion. There's always something going on behind the scenes that people want to misreport or un-report, which takes us into that realm.

Mr. Knight alluded to the idea that we needed DMP at 100% in the lobster fishery. My esteemed colleagues, I'm sure, will speak to it, but in the area I come from, that is not the answer, and that is not going to solve anything. People who are fishing illegally are not going to be caught through a DMP process, particularly in a fishery that uses control efforts like the lobster fishery. That won't be our answer, but I think the people who are using illegal methods are trying to hide from something, and usually it's from reporting to CRA. There are other things that are going on as well behind the scenes. From area to area, they differ in terms of the reasoning.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

If you have other places where you see that there are voids in traceability or the transfer from the boats at the docks, could you provide that in writing? I think I'm out of time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Arnold. You had about five seconds left.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

I’d like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I'll start with Mr. Allen.

We've heard a lot about the illegal, unreported and unregulated fisheries during the last couple of years.

Do you feel that the fisheries officers on the water clearly watch what is happening, or do you think that sometimes they close their eyes to some of those fisheries that are occurring?

We heard some testimony on that at the committee recently. I want to have your thoughts on that.

[Carl Allen]

That's a good question.

Some of my members feel that, yes, the C and P officers may, in certain cases with certain groups, turn and look the other way. For whatever reason—you can only speculate—in some cases, if they approach individuals exercising rights-based fishing, they face a lot of hostility. There's a limit; there's only so much that they can or may take. There's speculation that maybe sometimes they're told “hands off”.

At this point, it's like those catches in St. Marys Bay. It's all speculation until you know what the truth is.

My members feel that yes, in some cases, it's a hands-off approach.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay. I'm going to go to some different questions.

We've heard a lot about dockside monitoring. We had some chats—you, your association and me—regarding dockside monitoring. A lot of people who are coming to our committee for this study have said that dockside monitoring can be a solution for this illegal, unreported and unregulated fishery.

Do you agree with that?

[Carl Allen]

It depends on the fishery. I know that the FSC fishery—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I'm talking about the lobster fishery now.

[Carl Allen]

I know the FSCs are under monitoring, but the monitoring programs are very weak. For the lobster fishery as a whole, I don't know if that's the answer or not.

As a harvester, there's some concern about the complexity and challenges we face when we look at the scale of the fishery and the burden that may be incurred by that. We feel on a daily basis that there's something new coming at us.

I don't really feel that it's the silver bullet. I think probably a variety of things can be done to help that.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Can you give examples?

[Carl Allen]

To start with, an electronic weight slip may be a helpful thing.

I don't know. I think it's a very complex issue, and you'd really have to take some time to find some workable solutions that are not cumbersome for the industry itself, are feasible, make sense and will be effective.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Mr. Allen, are you still fishing lobster?

[Carl Allen]

I'm not today, but yes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

What lobster fishing area are you fishing in?

[Carl Allen]

I'm fishing in lobster fishing area 25. That's the central Northumberland Strait.