Fisheries Committee on Feb. 13th, 2024

[Annette Gibbons]

We do.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Why were there only 60 charges last year?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. You've gone over your time.

I'd ask the deputy minister to provide an answer in writing, if she can, afterwards.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier, for five minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

There's a little change in the order. I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Mr. Hardie will take my spot for this round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Okay.

Mr. Hardie, go ahead for five minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

It's just a different hairdo, that's all.

Sixty charges.... I'm sorry to use a bad analogy, but you could do 600 charges. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, given the extent of what's going on. Why were there only 60 charges?

[Doug Wentzell]

As colleagues have said, I just want to say that, as the regional director general for the Maritimes, my role is assigning resources for C and P, and—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

No, I'm sorry, sir. I don't need that explanation.

I need to know why there are not more charges.

[Doug Wentzell]

Laying charges involves all of the necessary steps in terms of assessing the individual circumstances and the evidence, and taking into account indigenous considerations for certain harvesters.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

They're on the river. They're not indigenous. Some of them are, of course. If they're on the river but not indigenous, not supposed to be fishing and don't have a licence, why do we not see more arrests?

[Doug Wentzell]

Based on last year, we had 107 arrests from the commercial elver fishery. We have 60 charges to date. I say, “to date” because we are still processing those files, and 107 arrests is a significant number for any fishery.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

How many have gone to trial?

[Doug Wentzell]

At this point we have the 60 charges, and it's up to the Public Prosecution Service to determine which ones go to trial.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We're dealing with two different supply chains here. We're dealing with the supply chain of the elvers themselves. I don't know what your intelligence is telling you about that, but you should know by this point where those fish are going, how they're getting out of the country and where they're going to out of the country.

Have you done the intelligence workup to clearly identify that supply chain?

[Annette Gibbons]

We are well aware of the supply chains, yes.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay. Then do you know where they're landing? Where are they going when they leave Canada?

[Annette Gibbons]

They're going to Asia, predominantly.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Where?

[Annette Gibbons]

Ultimately, they go to China. Other countries—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Why do we not know where in China these containers are ending up? We should be able to track them. We should be able to trace back, in fact, what's going on.

Do we have assets on the ground through Global Affairs or whatever in China to give us this information?

[Annette Gibbons]

We're hoping to expand out the supply chain, the point of exportation, understand that in more depth and have more control over it through the regulations that we're developing.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Let's look at the other supply chain. That's the justice supply chain.

It's already a year from when the last out-of-scope fishery took place. Out of the hundreds and maybe thousands that were on the river, we have 60 approved charges so far. Nobody's gone to court. Do we need more resources in the courts? Do we need some sort of strategy to get these dealt with?

When you have this much money literally swimming up the river, enforcement or even the threat of some kind of legal action isn't going to be much of a deterrence. They will take the chance. The only thing that might work is when people start getting their property seized or end up doing time in jail. It's a year later and none of this has happened.

What are you doing to pull in all of the partners that should be working in a synchronized way and be far more efficient at dealing with this?

I have one other question. You can answer that one and then answer this one too. Are enforcement officers afraid to enforce the law?

[Annette Gibbons]

As Mr. Wentzell indicated, we have structural working groups for figuring out our approach for the upcoming season, where we plan, with CBSA, the RCMP and local police, the various roles that we play. We make sure that everybody is aligned and ready. Then there is also, in real time, while the fishery's under way, a lot of back and forth with our partners.

As for the PPSC and the justice system, I think those are questions for justice and the PPSC.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You must be talking to them—you must. That's not a question.

Are the officers afraid to enforce the law? This sounds like a pretty rough business out there in the dark. I wouldn't blame them. I would suggest that cutting off the head of the beast that is the market might be a heck of a lot better way to go. However, to do that, you're going to need to have much better intelligence and much better knowledge of what's going on with these creatures once they're caught.

Has that sort of thinking been going on?

[Annette Gibbons]

We have been thinking about that, absolutely. As for the officers, they are trained to deal with all kinds of situations—